OBEs are not lucid dreams.

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taniaaust1
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Re: OBEs are not lucid dreams.

Postby taniaaust1 » 04 Jun 2014 11:47

double post.
Last edited by taniaaust1 on 04 Jun 2014 11:51, edited 1 time in total.
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taniaaust1
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Re: OBEs are not lucid dreams.

Postby taniaaust1 » 04 Jun 2014 11:49

Australian professor Harvey Irwin conducted a through comparative study of lucid dreams and sleep-initiatied OBEs, which concluded that most OBEs where unlike lucid dreams because during an OBE the brainwave patterns would often show alpha activity but hardly ever any REM, meaning that whatever the subjects where actually doing, they where defienatly not dreaming.


Thanks. I found your post very interesting. Seems you are sharing with a very tough group thou lol. Ah well, it is the science forum so tough sceptics are essential.

If I was still doing OBE and had got very experienced at it, I think I would go around trying to pinch all the sceptics. (Ive heard one can leave bruises but I never tried anything like that, I wish I had).
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taniaaust1
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Re: OBEs are not lucid dreams.

Postby taniaaust1 » 04 Jun 2014 11:54

Peter wrote:so what is an OBE, not what you think you are doing but what is classified as an OBE.

If I try for a WILD and look into the darkness in my eyes I can enter directly into a lucid dream

If I try for a WILD and think about my body I quietly slip out and am standing by my bed in my room in my other body and can walk around my house or go anywhere I want or call for a dream and get it or just blink my dream eyes and be in a dream

So is this an OBE or a lucid dream or not what you would call an OBE and if so tell me about some of yours so I know the difference

I cannot see any difference in what happens just in the entry style


I think people can easily dream an OBE if they have done reading on that kind of thing, I suspect this has happneed in smany cases.

I think an OBE in a person who has never read stuff on this but still has all the classical OBE stuff coming in eg vibrations and feeling the astral body leaving the physical body.. is more likely to be an OBE in that case.
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Summerlander
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Re: OBEs are not lucid dreams.

Postby Summerlander » 12 Jun 2014 21:51

I think an OBE in a person who has never read stuff on this but still has all the classical OBE stuff coming in eg vibrations and feeling the astral body leaving the physical body.. is more likely to be an OBE in that case.


Even this can't be taken as evidence. People who have OBEs but have never heard of such experiences previously are most likely experiencing proprioception distortions as the result of a glitching thalamus or something of the sort.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

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taniaaust1
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Re: OBEs are not lucid dreams.

Postby taniaaust1 » 14 Jun 2014 13:08

Summerlander wrote:
I think an OBE in a person who has never read stuff on this but still has all the classical OBE stuff coming in eg vibrations and feeling the astral body leaving the physical body.. is more likely to be an OBE in that case.


Even this can't be taken as evidence. People who have OBEs but have never heard of such experiences previously are most likely experiencing proprioception distortions as the result of a glitching thalamus or something of the sort.


Yeah you are right, it cant be taken as evidence still thou. (I personally think the only real evidence is to test things out like Ive said in my previous posts).

Have you got a theory on how it would produce exactly the same sensations eg vibrations in people? There must be so many different sensations a person could feel, why commonly that? and why commonly the sensation of the body loosening from the physical and starting to slip out in places. The sensations people get with astral projection even with those who have never read on these things, are quite specific ones which often happen.

Its like a group of people who have never see a dog or had one described to them at all, no knowledge of them. .. all describing dogs. What causes the dream (if that is all dream) to be so specific?
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LucidLink
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Re: OBEs are not lucid dreams.

Postby LucidLink » 14 Jun 2014 15:05

Summerlander wrote:I concur.

I'd also add that Mr. Campbell's TOE is nothing but hypothetical musings laced with mumbo-jumbo. He has already alienated himself from the scientific community by saying that he holds the "big picture" while the rest hold the little picture. He's a pseudoscientific narcissist who already has a cultish following...

Moreover, he is quite dishonest in his books when he deliberately twists the meaning (and context in which they were used) of quotes by renowned scientists and philosophers.

Now, when it comes to lucid dreams and OBEs, the only difference I see is interpretation. In the former, the individual recognises the experience for what it actually is while in the latter one makes an unfounded belief-centric assumption.

Now consider this. Last night I was running from a mammoth in a dream and became lucid...

Yes, I had a dream-initiated lucid dream (DILD). No perceived separation from the body involved. But I was flying and was able to explore a land where people and cartoons interacted with one another like in "Who Framed Roger Rabbit." I did not perceive myself tobe lying in bed(even though I knew this to be the case). Instead,my experience was fully immersed in being somewhere else other than where my physical body lay. Ostensibly, I was in a Space Jam world...

I felt like I was separate from my sleeping body and yet I knew it was all in my mind aka lucid dreaming. So now I pose the question:

What is the real difference? Cuz from where I'm standing,I see none. Am I wrong?

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a pseudoscientific narcisist? Sounds just like you haha!

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Summerlander
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Re: OBEs are not lucid dreams.

Postby Summerlander » 15 Jun 2014 01:35

The vibrations could be feedback from neuronic activity. The pons region of the brain sends inhibitory signals to the spinal cord, thus eventuating muscle atonia while you are sleeping. Conscious sleep paralysis could at times entail the perception of such feedback right before you hallucinate yourself leaving the body. So, all you have to do to experience the vibrational state is to be human. Since we all have the same organs and are so similar, there is your possible mundane explanation for why vibrations are so common - or common knowledge amongst lucid dreamers at least...

What is your view so far, tania?

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Karin
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Re: OBEs are not lucid dreams.

Postby Karin » 15 Jun 2014 21:38

My two cents regarding body vibrations and such: I haven't experienced OBEs but I did experience a couple WILDs and they started with buzzing in my head and body vibrations, movement, rolling sensations, etc... I assumed these sensations were from the conscious awareness disconnecting from the physical senses' input (audio, proprioception, vestibular, touch, etc...). The picture that comes to mind is the 'static' one gets when unplugging a signal cable from an oscilloscope: at the critical disconnection point, there might be a lot of noise in the signal before it flat-lines. Or same as when unplugging the headphone from the iPod, there is scratchy noise for half a second before the silence. If one keeps the headphones half-way plugged, the signal stays scratchy and noisy longer, until one yanks them all the way out (or all the way back in).

During the WILD I had ZERO input from my body's senses. I actually had no awareness of having a body except from remembering I have one, but body feelings were completely absent. During the WILD I actually felt new sensations that have no equivalent in real life (except for the vision, which was similar).

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Summerlander
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Re: OBEs are not lucid dreams.

Postby Summerlander » 15 Jun 2014 23:47

This explanation is certainly better and more plausible than mine. Especially where the noises are concerned. Another thing I would like to add is that, sometimes, during violent vibrations, I felt like someone was blowing raspberries on my spine.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: OBEs are not lucid dreams.

Postby HAGART » 16 Jun 2014 00:50

I heard the middle ear starts to vibrate and that's what causes the noises. Then they're misinterpreted with an hallucinating, dreamy perception.

During muscle atonia, there is a disconnection between the messages from the brain to the muscles through the central nervous system and spine, which again is misinterpreted.

That would explain the whole myriad of experiences people report, but all based on two simple, biological phenomenons.

I've got a few crazy stories myself, and no two were the same! I actually find them as thrilling, perhaps even more thrilling, than any lucid dream that ensues!
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.


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