Being a Well Liked Person

For all other chat which isn't directly related to lucid dreaming and the world of sleep and dreams.
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nesgirl
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby nesgirl » 03 Jul 2014 02:46

...
Last edited by nesgirl on 20 May 2015 01:32, edited 5 times in total.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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HAGART
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby HAGART » 03 Jul 2014 02:50

Now onto Summerlander:

I like your question posed about the Jumper. We see faces and expressions and misinterpret them. Heck, we see faces in clouds. But his wife, Devi, is a Blackwidow out for his money! ;) Even her rhetoric can't be trusted! That's why other animals seem easier to talk to... the very fact that they don't respond, means they don't tell lies. They express what they feel. (Better than listening to a politician on Fake News, err, I mean Fox News! They're all fake equally and I don't discriminate.... ;) ) Just saying that talking to animals is not insane, and serves a purpose, and it's cathartic and good to get away, and helps put things in a new perspective. Not saying I talk to them, and get responses, but like to sit and think with them and enjoy their company,... their 'friendship', for lack of a better word. I know it's an illusion of friendship, but I wouldn't want to be logical 24/7... I think I would go mad!

I do change my mind about this though. This made me re-think my analogy and I should have known better:
Summerlander wrote:Bears rape their own kind, dolphins are known to attack one another, and apes can behave tribally and kill their own. These are a few examples. You still want to compare humanity with animalism?


You are right, and they are cruel in their own species, I know. I'll give you that, and concede. You win that one. :D
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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HAGART
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby HAGART » 03 Jul 2014 03:31

Now I caught up and read your other response Summerlander. I am ashamed to admit, but it needs to be said, that I am a complete hypocrite. More people should acknowledge this.

I have been wrestling with this debate for years now: How can I justify having a dog as a pet and a pig as a meal? And yet some people do the opposite!

They are basically the same as far as intelligence, and very similar, and any other 'colour' in between (other animals, and life) are still just a collection of atoms with what I think have feelings whether others notice it or not. And the feelings I attributed to them all was just an emotional illusion of empathy, (or selectively ignoring it) as a mental-self-defense-mechanism to keep me 'moral', so I 'can sleep at night'. (We humans are ultimately so selfish...)

I WOKE UP! I see the truth.

I'm not saying it's immoral to eat meat. Just saying, if you want some, look it in the eyes, and kill it yourself. If you can't do that, than don't go to a grocery store and get it wrapped in plastic!

(I went off tangent, but I'll bring it back to the OP. What I say is what I believe, whether I am a well liked person or not, and will change my mind at times, because we are all friends with respect!)
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby Summerlander » 03 Jul 2014 12:07

Hi, nesgirl. You have expressed a common misconception regarding lucid dreaming: it is not an instance where free will is at work. Lucid dreaming is merely and instance where waking consciousness is active whilst dreaming and you realise the nature of your perceived surroundings.

In fact, what you decide to do in a lucid dream is constrained by urges that you did not author. Such impulses arise from your unconscious side and their origin are often unknown to the self. You may decide what you decide but you don't get to decide what you are going to decide. You can't even predict what you will be thinking next (and I bet you couldn't predict all your responses to my posts either prior to having been exposed to them). All of this just proves my point: there is no free will.

If you don't believe me, you can refer to Libet's experiments where the relevant motor parts of the brain activate before an individual becomes aware of deciding to move a limb. If you still insist that free will is not an illusion and that the universe is not deterministic dure to cause and effect, then give me a genuine example of free will seen as this subject is appearing to be apropos to the topic. (Bear in mind that you did not pick your genome, your family, your gender, your ethnic origin, your life's events which influenced you etc.) Ultimately, I contend that we cannot truly be blamed for anything just as praise is not ours to take for "our" achievements. The authorship belongs to the Big Bang that set everything in motion in this universe.

To Hagart: I'm pressed for time but I will respond to some of your points later.

Great discourse, guys. :-)

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby HAGART » 03 Jul 2014 15:39

I woke up and had a thought.
Indeed I am a hypocrite, as hard as that is to admit. But what's my alternative? Be called a VEGAN! :?
That's a really tough choice! I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, and don't know what's worse! ;) :lol:

I still recommend those links I posted yesterday, and wonder if you guys watched them? They're short, but say a lot.

nesgirl wrote:As long as I program a robot just right, the robot will do exactly as I tell it to, and I can talk to the robot as much as I want.


Aren't we all robots? Organic machines. And I am just words on a screen on your machine, so it's comfortable to talk as if we are just robots. Whether you know it or not though, I am your friend. We are not best friends in the inner circle, but due to forums like this, we are part of a larger social circle and influence each other. You seem anti-friendship, and I like to annoy you by saying this... I AM YOUR FRIEND!

I feel like Ernie talking to Oscar The Grouch! :P
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby Summerlander » 03 Jul 2014 19:56

@ Hagart:

I've decided to reply to some of the statements you made and I will eventually watch your videos (I am guilty of ignoring the links). :mrgreen:

I do change my mind about this though. This made me re-think my analogy and I should have known better


I can't tell you how many times I have changed my mind. But the fun is in re-thinking what we think we know in the face of new information. Why should we cling to certain beliefs and uncertainties and close our minds off to new info? Why narrow our perspective of the world? I only wish enlightened people had been more candid with me earlier in my life instead of worrying about offending me by expressing opposition to my views. :|

I applaud you for being honest in saying that you have changed your mind in the course of our discussion. I wish I had some of this honesty and humility when I first started socialising online. Those are very admirable qualities. And whether you expect, desire or are indifferent to how others view you after such admission, you have potentially increased your chances of being a well liked person in these circles regardless. 8-)

They are basically the same as far as intelligence, and very similar, and any other 'colour' in between (other animals, and life) are still just a collection of atoms with what I think have feelings whether others notice it or not. And the feelings I attributed to them all was just an emotional illusion of empathy, (or selectively ignoring it) as a mental-self-defense-mechanism to keep me 'moral', so I 'can sleep at night'. (We humans are ultimately so selfish...)


Interesting psychology behind the scenes there. I have something similar going on in my head. I can hear pigs squealing before they are slaughtered - and I feel for them - but I am still quite happy to eat them (even after learning that they are "closer cousins" to humans than dogs). I still wouldn't eat a dog though. I have started reading "The Moral Landscape" by Sam Harris (finished his essay on "Lying") and it is astonishing to learn, or be reminded of, the various things that we humans tell ourselves in a process of self-deception that will somehow retain our sense of being moral and be convincing enough to the point where we presume to already know what's best for us. :|

I'm not saying it's immoral to eat meat. Just saying, if you want some, look it in the eyes, and kill it yourself. If you can't do that, than don't go to a grocery store and get it wrapped in plastic!


I see the value of this statement and this is indeed what some individuals need to hear. But some could make the argument that they would rather have others slaughter animals for their consumption. They could say things like, "I'd rather not get my hands dirty." Another form of retaliation that you would have to prepare yourself for in a debate would be the reasoning that if you don't eat meat the animals will have perished in abattoirs in vain. The meat industry will go on and pigs will continue to be slaughtered as long as some of us have a gustatory penchant for pork. :shock:

EDIT:

Just watched the short videos you posted! The internet certainly helped to increase our Dunbar's number and it is indeed true that eating meat helped us to develop our brains (how animals first shaped our minds). Eventually we formed a bond which started from the earliest humans studying animals and talking advantage of them. Have you check out documentaries about the cat's evolution and how it came to be domesticated? The little silvesters began to hunt and kill pests for us and we provided food and shelter in return. So cool! :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby HAGART » 03 Jul 2014 22:12

Glad you watched those. It's food for thought in tiny, bit-sized, pieces.

Whenever we have a discourse, ask yourself this... what was the point? What did you learn or gain? (Not what did you say.)
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby Summerlander » 04 Jul 2014 00:21

Yeah, point taken. Sometimes I revise everything for fun and ask myself if I was a well liked person during the discourse. If not, it is usually enough for me to like myself. :-D

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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nesgirl
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby nesgirl » 07 Jul 2014 02:10

...
Last edited by nesgirl on 20 May 2015 01:33, edited 2 times in total.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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HAGART
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Location: CANADA

Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby HAGART » 07 Jul 2014 05:53

It's all perception. Summerlander has been on the other end of 'hate mail' in some topics and been called a 'troll' in another, but he doesn't let it bother him. (I hope you don't, because I'm on your side, even if we disagree on a few things).

Summerlander and Snaggle are "frenemies". ;) (They don't hate each other, and just love to argue....)

If you feel people hate you, Nesgirl, it was because you projected your own feelings on to others. I was the same way, but am changing for the better.

(And guess what, Dream Characters react the same way.... think about that ;) )
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.


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