Death

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Karin
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Joined: 13 May 2014 22:59

Re: Death

Postby Karin » 05 Jun 2014 19:15

A note regarding the impermanence of the body versus the permanence of the sense of identity during a lifetime:

"Every one of us completely regenerates our own skin every 7 days. A cut heals itself and disappears in a week or two. Every single cell in our skeleton is replaced every 7 years."
(http://stemcell.stanford.edu/research/)

The longest lived cells in the body are neurons. Those were thought to last for the lifetime, but even that is getting challenged, just like the concept of adult brain plasticity is relatively new. There is a lot we don't know about the brain yet...

"The most current research suggests that neural stem cells can generate many, if not all, of the different types of neurons found in the brain and the nervous system."
(http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/brain_basics/ninds_neuron.htm)

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erichsa
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Re: Death

Postby erichsa » 05 Jun 2014 19:48

For Summerlander it is always the same. "Death means death" Yes if that is what he believes why not. But must it always be rammed down our throat? Summerlander I don't say you are wrong. OK all your studying and experience gave you your present knowledge and conviction, and now that is it. I with my 82 years have mine with a big but. I am still learning and if I come across for me new data, and it makes sense to me I adopt it.
I don't say dead means death. I say: Death could mean death, to the physical anyhow, and no memory of the person who occupied that body, but how about of the spark of the divine which leaves the body at death. I don't say that is so, but it makes sense to me.
I like your other contribution to our forums, and that comes from my heart. :)

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Summerlander
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Re: Death

Postby Summerlander » 05 Jun 2014 23:59

No problem. Thanks erichsa. To Karin: It is certainly true that you are not and never were your, say, your 5-year-old self. Quite literally, that child is dead. Her cells are long gone and have been replaced by what makes you today. And yet, you feel like you were that little girl. This is an illusion. You remember experiencing what she experienced because the memories have been passed on from the "old system" into the new one. Despite the overall cell replacement, the stencil remained, and the essential memories for the preservation of the user illusion were retained. You could quite easily forget who you were if you suffered a blow to your head though. Remember the film Multiplicity where the first clone thought he was the original? It's a bit like that.

This, to me, only reinforces physicalism and how much we have to learn from it, as well as highlighting how premature the certainty for the divine and the numinous is. That, to me, is what is belief-centric and a product of wishful thinking even if the individual doesn't realise it.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Death

Postby HAGART » 06 Jun 2014 02:58

Summerlander wrote:To Karin: It is certainly true that you are not and never were your, say, your 5-year-old self. Quite literally, that child is dead. Her cells are long gone and have been replaced by what makes you today. And yet, you feel like you were that little girl. This is an illusion. You remember experiencing what she experienced because the memories have been passed on from the "old system" into the new one. Despite the overall cell replacement, the stencil remained, and the essential memories for the preservation of the user illusion were retained.


I was going to say the same thing. It makes you redefine 'death'. My 5 year-old-self is dead in both body and mind because it ceases to exist. What about my 5-second-ago-self? It too is dead!

Within the 5 seconds of writing that, I took a breath, replacing some oxygen atoms in my body and probably shedded some dead skin cells too without knowing it. But this vessel is not 'me'. The oxygen is not living and the skin cells were dead already, waiting to fall off like leaves. But the 'me' I was 5 seconds ago is gone. I have a new memory of writing that last sentence and now have new thoughts. I am 5 seconds more mature.

But we don't notice because it happens so quickly every second of every day. We only notice after some time has passed, usually a year, a made up cycle, and that's why one's birthday is important universally in all cultures. People celebrate a person's changing mind and body.

If my 5-second-ago-self is dead, so is my 1-second-ago-self, and my nano-second-ago-self, and so on, cutting time down forever for infinity until you realize you have to redefine what life and death is! :o

Maybe waking life is an illusion, and therefore so is death. :ugeek:

Reminds me of the movie, Waking Life, and here's a transcript from a scene that is pertinent to what we're talking about:

http://wakinglifemovie.net/Transcript/Chapter/7
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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HAGART
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Re: Death

Postby HAGART » 06 Jun 2014 03:26

Some food for thought:

Our minds don't like empty space. We fill in the gaps constantly whether it's the blind spots in our field of vision or the Swiss cheese of our memory. The mind doesn't tolerate nothingness without a fight.

So too does the universe. If there is an empty space, atoms will try to rush in to fill it at any cost and it's a very strong force. The universe doesn't tolerate nothingness either.

Coincidence?
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Death

Postby Summerlander » 07 Jun 2014 00:13

What's more, even the five-year-old's memories and conscious experiences are long gone. What we get is reconstructions representing something like what it was like - and because of this false memories are inevitable and taken to be accurate representations.

On nothingness: It would take a miracle to preserve it in this universe. The Big Bang was inevitable, and, as it turns out, the vacuum of space is a vast something made of space-time fabric with a myriad virtual particles.

If one wants true nothingness one has to examine what is between two objects (two somethings) that are attached to each other. No space-time between the. Nothing.

The mind certainly seems to mirror the natural avoidance of nothingness. The mind is busy and noisy as it is the universe itself, in conscious mode. It is aware of being busy in the form of human beings. One day, the universe will "die" (all stars will blow out) and there will be no more conscious beings to observe it. When that happens, the universe will truly sleep, and we will be as dead as the moon.

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Death

Postby HAGART » 07 Jun 2014 03:28

If the universe 'dies' off then it is not infinite, and neither was time.
If that is so, then in the grand scheme of things time is irrelevant. 1 second, 1 year, a billion years... all happen in an instant as though it never even existed.
It only exists the way it does because something is perceiving it. (YOU).

Or maybe the universe IS infinite.... that's a whole new ball game!

I know MAKER doesn't mind when these topics go off on a tangent, but to look at life and death, or existence and non-existence, we must first agree upon whether the universe and time are infinite or not. That changes everything!

(It's really hard to answer that, but just something to think about).
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Worldenterer1
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Re: Death

Postby Worldenterer1 » 05 Jul 2014 01:31

All that I know, Is that in this mess of existence, in the star dust that this planet was formed from, I am alive and contained within a unique physical manifestation. I am the universe experiencing itself. I am a thought, a thought thinking independently while making more thoughts. Through Carbon and Calcium and Iron and electrical charges I exist, and even the words I type only hold meaning to my perceptive standpoint.

I do not know what an individual atom perceives, or if it does perceive, and I also claim no control over said atom. all I know is that I am a random but precise amalgamation of these pieces, and someday I will be broken back down into these individual parts, indivisibly, until my perception no longer does justice to the realms or manifestations in time and space.

There is no such being based off of Man's image that created the concurrence of the universe and all that exists. To think that there is a being of omnipotence based after ourselves, in my opinion, is arrogant, selfish, and one sided. Never has a carbon organism before us done such a drastic phenomena, and with this forced self entitlement, we will see our collapse.

To believe in the Aether is not to believe in nothing. It is to substantiate and look forward to rejoining the deconstructed forms of our being and planet when the time comes, and to look forward to a realm or plane of existence that is beyond our current perception.

Peace and love to all, I am me, I hold no title in belief, and I wish no harm to anyone who thinks differently. I control myself, and that is it. And within my self control I find peace. -Hex535
Lucid Dream Count: 10
Normal Dream Count: 100+
Goal for next LD: Think with portals.

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Summerlander
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Re: Death

Postby Summerlander » 06 Jul 2014 02:01

I love your third paragraph. It is so irreligious. So secular. It could come from an atheist. Or a pantheist akin to Spinoza. Or even a Deist like Thomas Paine. I appreciate your sentiment. I too am anoyed by the " lord created the universe with you in mind and He loves you, don't you know..." malarkey. It's vain, narcissistic, egotistical, and a tad solipsistic. Why couldn't the Creator have cockroaches or bacteria in mind when He made the universe? The latter rule the planet, don't they? :-D

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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