The Placebo Effect And LD's

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Jackson
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The Placebo Effect And LD's

Postby Jackson » 17 Jul 2014 22:45

I recently had a thought about how the Placebo effect could be used by others around you in waking life (or on the forum) to positively affect their lucid dreaming experience. So I went ahead and conducted an experiment that could prove this theory of mine. I told my friend -who was having some trouble stabilizing his lucid dreams- that to stabilize the dream you have to repeatedly tap your foot on the ground. And a few days later, he reported the technique working very well.

So a simple conclusion that can be drawn from this - and what I was trying to prove in the first place-, and the conclusion is that if you believe with reasonably certainty that something will work in an LD it will. And so therefore one of the worst things a beginner can do is become frustrated and believe that they will fail at LD'ing because then this will most certainly come true. So the people who subconsciously condition themselves with these thought patterns and beliefs may be truly prevented from ever LD'ing.


Finally, I think if we condition ourselves to the same extent except positively, we may be able to further our abilities as LD'ers, or as beginner's develop the skill quickly. To do this we will have to create a positive feedback loop, which is how conditioning to not have LD's gets so strong. (We fail a few times and begin to believe we can't, therefore making it more likely for us to fail next time, and with each failure, that belief grows). In order to accomplish this we must increase the chance for our first attempt at lucid dreaming to be more successful as much as we can. We could do this by reading about the techniques and most importantly the dreams others have on here before trying for the first time, and maybe even practice a few techniques on there own, but never in tandem, until we feel very ready. The reading of others dreams is very key because of this effect, call it the ____ Effect. In essence this Effect occurs when you watch, for example professional sports ( when you play the sport). After watching the game you feel very confident and feel like "Wow, that's amazing. It's so easy!" and you believe you can be as good as them. Usually this has no effect in the waking world. But as stated above, if belief positively affects your lucid dreaming ability, then this could be very helpful to beginners.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, feel free to post any thoughts on this hope you enjoyed :) :lol:

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Xtreme_Walrus
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Re: The Placebo Effect And LD's

Postby Xtreme_Walrus » 30 Jul 2014 04:22

I do agree that the Placebo Effect can be helpful in Lucid Dreams, however, a controlled movement such as spinning in circles, rubbing your hands together, or in this case tapping your foot, will stabilize the dream. It could go either way, but that could actually be a decent way to stabilize dreams, not just a Placebo.
"I woke up in between a memory and a dream" -Tom Petty

Jackson
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Re: The Placebo Effect And LD's

Postby Jackson » 30 Jul 2014 23:52

Xtreme_Walrus wrote:I do agree that the Placebo Effect can be helpful in Lucid Dreams, however, a controlled movement such as spinning in circles, rubbing your hands together, or in this case tapping your foot, will stabilize the dream. It could go either way, but that could actually be a decent way to stabilize dreams, not just a Placebo.



What about tapping your foot makes it stabilize the dream, because I think that any so called "technique" (except for the techniques to actually become lucid) is really just a Placebo Effect, that came about through random chance. Afterwards, we rationalize why it might have worked, and we tell others both these things. If the logic is sound, then a Placebo is created. The person believes that this will work, because of some technique -rationalized after the fact-, seemed to work. I think a lot, if not all lucid dreaming techniques are really just this. Sort of like an evolution of sorts. By random chance, some "techniques" work (flapping your arms, spinning, tapping feet) and you can rationalize some of these techniques better than others. The chance that the idea will catch on, is, by random, evolutionary chance, better suited to survival ( by this I mean an idea is "dead" if no one believes it and/or hasn't heard of it). And so it lives on, strengthened further and further by new lucid dreamers by these popular techniques who have success with it because more people believe it works, and because it works the idea is strengthened. And if the technique-idea doesn't work for too many people than it dies off.

Anyway, sorry for any bad grammar, I am not really paying attention that much :lol:

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HAGART
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Re: The Placebo Effect And LD's

Postby HAGART » 31 Jul 2014 01:22

Let's test this theory out. I swear by this method and it works every time:
Before bed, eat a lemon, count to backwards from 13 to 4 while jogging in place. Now once lucid, to stabilize the dream, put on a clown wig, do a hand-stand and attempt to pick your nose with your big toe.
I've read this technique in many books and there are so many success stories that can vouch for it!

I'm using hyperbole, but when you think about it, why wouldn't it work? If enough people swear by it and write enough books about it, it will become a belief. It's not the actual procedure, but the fact that there are so many cases of success stories that makes one believe it can work. And it's the BELIEF that is most effective. Believing in yourself.

Jackson used the example of watching sports and then going outside and improving your game as a result. I'm not into sports, however I enjoy cooking and like to pretend I'm a chef. (Well, I am, just not professionally). After watching some cooking competitions on Food Network, I get inspired and believe I can do it too, and raid my fridge, and come up with great ideas as a result. You don't have to be the best in the world.

There's an expression: "A writer writes". It means, you don't have to be published to call yourself a writer, you simply have to write. "A dreamer dreams". Even when unsuccessfully achieving a lucid dream for a while, or even for the first time, you are still a dreamer by the very fact that you are interested and devoted to it. In my opinion, the greatest athletes, chefs, writers, and even dreamers do it for the fun of it, win or lose.

But if you want to "win" and become the greatest lucid dreamer of all time, you must do what all of us experts do: You must put on that clown wig! ;)
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

Jackson
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Re: The Placebo Effect And LD's

Postby Jackson » 31 Jul 2014 04:23

HAGART wrote:Let's test this theory out. I swear by this method and it works every time:
Before bed, eat a lemon, count to backwards from 13 to 4 while jogging in place. Now once lucid, to stabilize the dream, put on a clown wig, do a hand-stand and attempt to pick your nose with your big toe.
I've read this technique in many books and there are so many success stories that can vouch for it!

I'm using hyperbole, but when you think about it, why wouldn't it work? If enough people swear by it and write enough books about it, it will become a belief. It's not the actual procedure, but the fact that there are so many cases of success stories that makes one believe it can work. And it's the BELIEF that is most effective. Believing in yourself.

Jackson used the example of watching sports and then going outside and improving your game as a result. I'm not into sports, however I enjoy cooking and like to pretend I'm a chef. (Well, I am, just not professionally). After watching some cooking competitions on Food Network, I get inspired and believe I can do it too, and raid my fridge, and come up with great ideas as a result. You don't have to be the best in the world.

There's an expression: "A writer writes". It means, you don't have to be published to call yourself a writer, you simply have to write. "A dreamer dreams". Even when unsuccessfully achieving a lucid dream for a while, or even for the first time, you are still a dreamer by the very fact that you are interested and devoted to it. In my opinion, the greatest athletes, chefs, writers, and even dreamers do it for the fun of it, win or lose.

But if you want to "win" and become the greatest lucid dreamer of all time, you must do what all of us experts do: You must put on that clown wig! ;)



:lol: ... So funny yet so true :D

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HAGART
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Re: The Placebo Effect And LD's

Postby HAGART » 31 Jul 2014 05:23

I can go further and explain my technique.

The lemon has natural citric acids which we all know induce lucid dreams. Don't bother looking this up in a book. We all know it! Counting backwards from 13 to 4 triggers our logical thinking which stimulates a lucid mind. 13 and 4 are archetypal numbers that induce a deep, subliminal desire to dream while still focused. Jogging in place increases proprioception which will carry over into the lucid dream, providing a strong sense of dream body. Don't look this up, just take my word for it.

Once in the dream and lucid, as you will be given my 100% affective technique, you must now stabilize it. You need to conjure the wisdom hat of many colors. It's a mystical astral device, shrouded in mystery, only presenting itself to true believers. It's written in ancient scripts known only by a rare few, but I will tell you for I have climbed many mountains seeking it. It is a furry, technicolored helmet, much like the dreamcoat of Joseph in western mythology. You must place it on your head, and the many colors represent the many truths unknown seeping into your consciousness. Standing upside down on your hands will now allow the spiritual energy of your body to become one with the astral helmet, much like blood rushing to your head. That is known by the esoteric group known as Bozos. The final step is to contort your dream body beyond it's physical limits and attempt to merge your lowest body part, (your big toe) with your consciousness, through the only open orifice with direct contact to your brain. Even ancient Egyptians during the practice of mummification knew that the nose was a direct pathway to the brain.

Only this way, and this way only, can you reach a lucid dream of full clarity and be enlightened. You may have laughed, but what if millions of people believed in this?

I had some fun with that and it proves a point with the exaggeration, the hyperbole. I could have taken anything and worked with it to make it sound reasonable. If you question my technique, you should question all techniques and beliefs. Some get caught up in an endless loop of confirmation bias, dreaming what they believe and believing what they dream.

There are many techniques with sound, scientific reasoning out there and I'm not discrediting them. I'm just urging people to think. But hey, if it works for you, and the placebo effect is at work, enjoy your lucid dreams with your astral helmet of infinite colors of truth known only by the esoteric group lead by the great almighty Bozo.


(I'm making fun of beliefs and the placebo effect of believing in them, not people. I wish all those attempting to lucid dream a good night and good luck however you do it! I'm going to go bite into a lemon!)
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Karin
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Re: The Placebo Effect And LD's

Postby Karin » 31 Jul 2014 15:24

I love this thread, the placebo effect is fascinating to me.

Even though I am a beginner, and need to gather more experience, I also think that 'You see what you believe' might be very true in an LD (I am using 'might' because I am not experienced enough to know for sure). That is actually what makes LDs so interesting to me. Because I think that most of our beliefs are unconscious beliefs (we are not even aware that we believe in this or that), and during an LD, we might actually get to see and experience what those unconscious beliefs are.

It opens the possibility then that we might be able to change those beliefs while in an LD, if we so wish: for instance, an unconscious fear might manifest in an LD, and by realizing that it's just a projection of the mind and nothing to be really afraid of, it might disappear. That's just an example, it might work for a lot more things than just fears.

Even better, I am thinking that addressing these unconscious beliefs in the LD might have positive impacts on our daily life as well, because I suspect that unconscious beliefs also affect our daily life (I am not good enough, nobody likes me, I always fail, I am going to get cancer, etc... etc... leading to self-fulfilling prophecies and the same problems showing up again and again). This could have huge potential. Again, I am just speculating here. That's things I am hoping for.

To go back to the placebo effect: before I even started being interested in LDs, I was fascinated by the placebo effect in medicine. The reason why new drug development costs millions or billions and takes decades, is in part due to the placebo effect, that requires large double-blind placebo-controlled trials to determine whether a new drug works better than a placebo. This is because the placebo effect is very real and plays a large part in a patient's response to a treatment. For drug development, the placebo effect is a major confounding nuisance. But for the patients, wouldn't it be awesome if we could develop the placebo effect itself, amplify it and harness it's power to treat ailments, either without drugs, or with drugs by magnifying their effect?

The problem is, once you know you're getting a placebo pill, it does not work as well as if you truly believe you are getting a powerful drug (which is why trials have to be blinded, even the doctors have to be blinded). And we can't force ourselves to believe in something, it occurs at an unconscious level.

So now, since during an LD we are immersed within our mind and have a direct window into the unconscious mind, what if we could plant new beliefs in our unconscious mind during an LD? For instance, could we place suggestions in our unconscious mind during an LD, basically telling ourselves that our body's own defense mechanisms can heal us from this or that ailment?

That's one goal I have: once I gain more experience and become a proficient lucid dreamer, I'd like to explore this stuff. I am thinking I might start with some chronic issues I have, that medicine does not have all the answers for (for instance, irritable bowel syndrome). Maybe I could ask my subconscious to show me why I have this IBS, what the problems are, and then I could either give myself suggestions to alleviate those problems, or even maybe ask my subconscious to suggest how this could be alleviated.


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