The Illusion of Free Will?

For all other chat which isn't directly related to lucid dreaming and the world of sleep and dreams.

Do you think we have free will?

No
14
50%
Yes
12
43%
Don't know
2
7%
 
Total votes: 28

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Summerlander
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Re: The Illusion of Free Will?

Postby Summerlander » 02 Aug 2014 09:38

Indeed. And most people really believe colours are out there, as part of nature, and that we see the world exactly as it is. Can I say I've just decided to have a cup of coffee right now? Of course I can and I really feel like I have authored such decision. But it only takes a moment to realise that I fancy it. I feel like having it. I feel like it. I'm compelled by an urge to have coffee. I'm perfectly okay with the deterministic nature of the universe.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Peter
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Re: The Illusion of Free Will?

Postby Peter » 02 Aug 2014 09:47

Awesome, enjoy the coffee and it may have been driven by free will at another level so we are almost at the start again :D
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Summerlander
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Re: The Illusion of Free Will?

Postby Summerlander » 02 Aug 2014 12:02

Thanks! It was delicious. If I had run out of coffee I'd hurting right now as I would be unable to decide not to want coffee. Saying "I don't want it" would be lying to myself. By the way, don't forget to vote, Peter! :-D

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Jack Reacher
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Re: The Illusion of Free Will?

Postby Jack Reacher » 02 Aug 2014 23:54

I think a huge part of this is breaking down identity. I think human beings have free will in the sense that they are a causal component of future events. The psychological/conscious component that Peter nodded towards is really just a puppet of the human being, it is a tool that we use. So when that part makes decisions, I agree it is really just being stringed along.

This is where it gets hard for me to illustrate my point in free will, because I still don't have a good grasp on what we truly are as human beings at an existential point. I sorta believe that we are always in a subconscious state, being guided by the vibrations of our body or our soul/spirit/ true human form.

Something I once did that I regret was look into a strangers eye as I walked past them and try to calculate exactly what they were experiencing at the time, and pinpoint it inside their head that I was staring at. It was like seeing spinning disks inside their eyes, disturbing stuff won't be doing that again.
"There is theoretical abstraction, and then there is true abstraction."

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Peter
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Location: New Zealand

Re: The Illusion of Free Will?

Postby Peter » 03 Aug 2014 02:03

Looking into a strangers eye, I try to feel people and judge their bodies energy as a talk or meeting proceeds and it is one of the most powerful tools for negotiations in a business setting.

There is always discomfort when you start a deep process like that and that is a bias at the level of daily reality that is a major barrier to overcome but there is no reason to not overcome.

I think that our SC is no more or no less that an organic computer and will by nature respond to impute so the more pure (without bias) the information going in the better the output in the form of intuition and the more ofter leaps in understanding will occur.

Nothing mystical in the SC it has no agenda and will do its work with what it gets from our senses and tempered with our positive and negative bias. Both are as bad as each other.
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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HAGART
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Re: The Illusion of Free Will?

Postby HAGART » 03 Aug 2014 03:04

I felt like rambling... but hey... I have no free will anyway, so why should I worry? 8-)



Peter wrote:I think that our SC is no more or no less that an organic computer and will by nature respond to impute so the more pure (without bias) the information going in the better the output in the form of intuition and the more ofter leaps in understanding will occur.


We can put it in so many words, and I tried many times, but basically that's the way I see it too. It's what I believe.

It can be tough when you realize that your ego sense of self is a mere illusion, and the 'you' that you think you are, with all its emotions (what are emotions anyway? How are they quantified?), is just a small slice of the pie of the entire thing. Perhaps constructed out of evolutionary necessity. That's why I love listening to dream characters stemming from my subconscious self. They speak frankly, and just state the facts. (most of the time). To me, that is my 'higher self', and worth listening to. It has no bias, no reason to lie, love, or hate. It just, is. It would be nice to let that other part of you, and me, take over for a while during times of stress when you need it. (And it does during car accidents, natural disasters, and buildings on fire when people shut off and just act, often forgetting what they did, being in 'robot mode'). It might be the Amygdala Stress Response, but I don't know. I just feel it's true in my heart.

I sound like a spiritualist, with a lack of science, and you would hear the same words from a Californian Guru with a long beard, selling tickets to his Yoga Class. ;) But it's actually very logical when you think about it. Don't buy into the B.S. surrounding all this. Self discovery is free.

We are indeed much like robots, who only feel they are making choices, when in actuality it can all be predicted just like the weather. Why are forecasters always wrong, you may ask? It's because there are so many variables. Just because there are too many for our meager monkey minds to understand, doesn't mean all the variables aren't there. They are! Absolutely EVERYTHING is predictable given the variables.

That's why free will is an illusion.

About Jack Reacher's experience staring into a stranger's eye:
Sometimes I'll be in a public place, and just start to wonder what everyone else is thinking and it can almost lead to a panic attack! It's too much to take in. Not exactly the same as looking at someone in the eyes and wondering how their 'gears are turning', but I feel I can relate. I think too much sometimes.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Karin
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Re: The Illusion of Free Will?

Postby Karin » 03 Aug 2014 03:38

Jack Reacher wrote:This is where it gets hard for me to illustrate my point in free will, because I still don't have a good grasp on what we truly are as human beings at an existential point. I sorta believe that we are always in a subconscious state, being guided by the vibrations of our body or our soul/spirit/ true human form.


I agree with this statement, Jack Reacher. It resonates with me.

Another thought (the following is not a scientific statement or any evidence-based reasoning, just some brainstorming):

Let's assume as a hypothesis and as a very simplified symbolic picture, that our life is a non-lucid dream that our 'soul/spirit' is having, and that we are the main dream character is this dream. The dream character thinks it has free will, but in fact it does not because it is just a dream character. Now if the soul/spirit would become lucid in the dream, it would realize it is dreaming and it might start to control the reactions of the dream character. For example, instead of the dream character running away from recurrent challenges/problems/drama/monsters/fears/illnesses/accidents (which look like they exist outside of the dream character but in fact are just other aspects of the soul/spirit), the lucid dream character would realize it is dreaming, and start reacting differently to all this challenges, as if they are just reflections of its own soul/spirit unconscious fears, unconscious beliefs, etc... (just as in a dream) and maybe the dream (real life) would start changing for the better.

In other words, if the soul/spirit would become lucid in the life of the physical being (its dream), maybe it could start using its free will to transform the dream (improve everything from the body to the physical mind to the outer events).

To push this image further, maybe this life on Earth is some kind of shared dream. Maybe 8 billions spirit/souls are having a shared dream, each one having a slightly different dream but shared, at least shared with the people we are directly interacting with (the rest of the 8 billions that we hear of or see on TV might be just props).

And by the way, this shared dream is more like a gigantic nightmare. Maybe if more and more souls/spirits would start becoming lucid in this shared dream, the whole world could start changing for the better and there would be less need for all these wars, drama and diseases.

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nesgirl
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Re: The Illusion of Free Will?

Postby nesgirl » 03 Aug 2014 04:54

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Last edited by nesgirl on 21 May 2015 06:03, edited 1 time in total.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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HAGART
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Re: The Illusion of Free Will?

Postby HAGART » 03 Aug 2014 07:17

Given an illusion of choice in my head right now, beyond my free will, I want to say something, due to an urge:
I want Jackson to chime in, one way or another.
How can they just sit back, after starting this, and just watch us all bicker? :D

I think that's the most important question ever asked in this entire thread! 8-)

(Who's the real puppet master!) ;)
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: The Illusion of Free Will?

Postby Summerlander » 03 Aug 2014 17:47

I very much agree with Hagart about the unknown variables. Imagine if we knew all of them. How would human behaviour then appear to us.

And here's just a clarification I would like to append to Karin's posted analogy: lucid dreaming does not equate with suddenly acquiring free will in dreams. To lucid dream is simply to be aware of the true nature (that of a dream) of one's surroundings. Such realisation, which is simply a mere modification of understanding what is being perceived, will then influence the emotions, thoughts, and feelings of the dreamer in a particular way. The stimulus of lucidity, depending on the physiology of the brain at the time, will then determine whether the lucid dreamer will feel like flying over the Himalayas or desire sexual intercourse with a Hollywood celebrity.

Where is free will?

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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