Lucid Dreamers and God

For those who wish to discuss the purely scientific aspects of sleep and dreams, including new research and future technologies.

Have you ever tried to communicate with God in the phase state (LD/OOBE/AP)?

Yes, and I was successful
3
7%
Yes, but nothing happened
2
4%
Yes, but what was encountered was a product of my mind
5
11%
No, but I am willing to try
21
47%
No, and I'm reluctant to try out of fear
0
No votes
No, and I never will (I'm an atheist who doesn't see any point)
14
31%
 
Total votes: 45

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buildit
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby buildit » 30 Sep 2014 20:05

Summerlander wrote:This something you call God... Do you believe it exists objectively (separate from your mind)? If so, why? And is this something intelligent and the Creator of all there is?

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1. Yes it is separate because I had no influence over what happened in real life.

2. Don't understand all creation so disputing its' responsibility for that to me is useless. Because you plant seed doesn't mean you are responsible for it's growth even if you water it later. ;) Was it present or has greater knowledge about the beginning of the cosmos. I'd be surprised if it didn't.

So in fairness why do you feel God can't exist? As a scientist I am curious. ;)
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Summerlander » 02 Oct 2014 00:55

Just because you have no influence over something doesn't mean it is separate from you. There are many examples: epileptic fits, most dreams, memories (some take you by surprise, some elude you try as you might) etc. etc.

I don't believe in God because there is no evidence for such Being. And it is certainly no explanation for the cosmos either for a Creator of such caliber would have to be as complex (if not more complex) than the universe itself. Which only aggravates the problem of trying to explain the origin of all there is. You are then forced to ask: who or what created God and who created His creator ad infinitum. It's no real answer and you might as well say it was magic.

As a scientist you should be aware of rich scientific theories which explain the beginning of the universe using quantum fluctuations where everything happens naturally and no deities are required. At the quantum level, if there is no spacetime, then the potential for this to emerge is enormous. Hence cosmic expansion. It fits.

If you want to learn more about why I find the notion of a God ridiculous, besides obviously man-made, read the OP. The following posts also show why no mental content can be trusted as being genuine divine revelation. Illusions, delusions, hallucinations, and dreams can be quite convincing but they do not constitute proof of anything. Likewise, the schizo who believes God talks to him cannot be taken at face value.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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buildit
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby buildit » 02 Oct 2014 01:29

Well thankfully the mind police allow me to have equal baskets. I can have one full of scientific knowledge which enriches my intellectual life and a basket full of words from men alive 2000 years ago who battled the oppression those who were right by rule of law. They couldn't fully explain their experiences but proclaimed them as holy events. This basket enriches my soul and teaches me good from evil. Take either one and I am not the man I am today and would be poorer because of it.
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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Peter
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Peter » 02 Oct 2014 04:08

They couldn't fully explain their experiences but proclaimed them as holy events


And if they had those experiences now they might be posting about them on a LD blog. I always think the experiences were real and they had only the reference of the time to add context to them and so they became the basis of vagarious religions.
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Summerlander » 02 Oct 2014 17:26

buildit wrote:Well thankfully the mind police allow me to have equal baskets. I can have one full of scientific knowledge which enriches my intellectual life and a basket full of words from men alive 2000 years ago who battled the oppression those who were right by rule of law. They couldn't fully explain their experiences but proclaimed them as holy events. This basket enriches my soul and teaches me good from evil. Take either one and I am not the man I am today and would be poorer because of it.


Mind police? What are you talking about? You imply that all atheists, especially those who were raised secularly, have a low morale and cannot tell right from wrong, which is clearly not the case. You don't have to be a believer to be good and vice versa. (Although I would point out that atheistic countries in the world today seem to have the lowest crime rates while the most religious, like those in the Middle East and Africa, are war-torn and in great conflict.) :cry:

Need I also point out the conflict between Protestants and Catholics; and disagreements between Sunnis and Shiites? If the so-called holy scripture was the perfect word of God, shouldn't we expect it to be more coherent and less immoral? Shouldn't all who subscribe to it have an understanding? And why does it not reach everyone if god is so powerful and merciful? Why the test of the ridiculous concept of blind faith? Why is the Leader saying: "you have to be a fool to enter my kingdom - believe without proof"? :?

In the Bible, Jesus orders his acolytes to kill non-believers. It also sanctions slavery and all sorts of discrimination. And they all disagree! Many gods or just one? Or a trinity? Why is Mormonism claiming to be more complete than Christianity when it was initially racist and forced to change? why is Islam claiming to be the last revelation and the unalterable word of God? In Hinduism, the doctrine of sati says widows must be burned on the dead husband's funeral pyre. Also, religion in general has a tendency to suppress sexual urges, which, in itself, is unhealthy. It also urges you to believe in the supernatural and claims that miracles exist. To imply that you know a miracle when you see one is to imply that you know all there is to know about the universe and how it works. The great philosopher David Hume taught us this. A scientist will test the unusual event in order to learn more. He does not proclaim something to be a miracle without knowing exactly what took place for he knows that there is still a lot to learn and that illusions also exist. :geek:

The Quran speaks of holy war, martyrdom, and death to non-believers. The Bible expresses its fair share of amorality/immorality with Deuteronomy and Leviticus, where people of other faiths deserve the sword; and where Yahweh sanctions the rape, torture, and murder of men, women and children. Such crimes are okay when ordered by the Almighty. And before I forget, homosexuality, a supposed flaw in God's creation, is an abomination. Hmmm... :roll:

It also dares Abraham to kill his own son Isaac as proof of faith in a hideous test. And remember how Abraham would be viewed today if he claimed to hear the voice of God in his head! The people who were saved from Sodom, who were supposed to be God's exemplary human creation and therefore the only individuals worth saving from the city of sin, then went on to get drunk in a cave and committed incest. The Ten Commandments are just atrocious. Some are wasted in revering a jealous god. The good ones are just tediously obvious. None of the commandments protect children from abuse and religious paedophiles rejoice. (The Church protects them anyway.) Meanwhile, Prophet Muhammad's youngest wife is only nine! As I said before, God's recipe for morality can and has been improved greatly by secular humanists all over the world. (Thankfully enough, we evolve!)

As for science, it can determine human values by showing us what benefits the human race. Because of this, it can certainly help us to come up with an improved brand of morality where religion is not required. Religion, as far as I can tell, has become outdated because it is a product of mankind's infancy. (I recommend "The Moral Landscape" by Sam Harris.)

Basic morality precedes the great monotheisms of the world: fact. It also has an evolutionary explanation. One read of Richard Dawkins's "The Selfish Gene" and you will see why the selfish gene, which has a tendency to preserve its kind if it is highly adaptive, can lead to altruism being expressed by its organic "armours" (our living bodies, i.e. us). (It is all mechanistic and nothing to do with divine revelation.) :)

Think about it. Are you telling me that if you stop believing in God there is nothing stopping you from killing, raping and stealing? Are you telling me that you are only good because so-called revelation has bribed you with a heaven whilst simultaneously threatening you with a hell? Do you not see how analogous this is with the idea of Santa Claus, his presents, and his naughty list?

Religion degrades human beings. It tells them they are incapable of thinking for themselves. It tells them they are no good and need to be saved. As Christopher Hitchens once said, "created sick, ordered to be well." He pointed out that the relationship between the invisible man and his willing servants is a sadomasochistic one. He will test you to see how faithful you are. He tells you that you must love him. He tells you he is infinitely good and all merciful whilst paradoxically reminding you that you should fear Him because His wrath is mighty and He could smite you. He is the absolute ruler for all time and there is no escape from Him. He dictates to you in this life and the next. It is a celestial dictatorship from which there is no appeal. He sent a supposedly innocent to die for your sins (no logic, no justice) and you owe Him. As much as they tell you He gave you free will, you do not really have a choice. (In fact, neuroscientific experiments pretty much demonstrate that free will is only an illusion.) :ugeek:

The tenets of this old religion do not really teach you to distinguish good from evil. Religion, in fact, blurs the lines and is schismatic by nature. It encourages discrimination. It hijacks the good that comes from human beings and sources it as divine in origin. "It could only have come from God," they say. The ruler can do anything, even kill by the millions, and His servants say He moves in mysterious ways. All it takes is for the servant to have a change of heart, to stop believing, and he is lynched, even today, like a heretic.

An Order that proclaims "holy" what it can't explain isn't enriching you, it is deceiving you. It encourages you to believe in a fantasy and to give up on the search for real answers. Searching for real answers is what science does, and with this you can marvel at its discoveries. This is what is enriching. It is enriching and humble because it claims that it does not know everything but that it is at least trying to understand.

The other side, on the other hand, claims to know without proof. It claims to be absolutely certain that there is a God and has nothing to show for itself. It also claims to know the mind of God, which is a very dangerous affair.

Now, I leave you with a quote:

" Let's say that the consensus is that our species, being the higher primates, Homo Sapiens, has been on the planet for at least 100,000 years, maybe more. Francis Collins says maybe 100,000. Richard Dawkins thinks maybe a quarter-of-a-million. I'll take 100,000. In order to be a Christian, you have to believe that for 98,000 years, our species suffered and died, most of its children dying in childbirth, most other people having a life expectancy of about 25 years, dying of their teeth. Famine, struggle, bitterness, war, suffering, misery, all of that for 98,000 years. Heaven watches this with complete indifference. And then 2000 years ago, thinks "That's enough of that. It's time to intervene," and the best way to do this would be by condemning someone to a human sacrifice somewhere in the less literate parts of the Middle East. Don't lets appeal to the Chinese, for example, where people can read and study evidence and have a civilization. Let's go to the desert and have another revelation there. This is nonsense. It can't be believed by a thinking person."

- Christopher Hitchens

Here he is in all his glory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQgHds6eIJ0

Thomas Hobbes once said that dreams are the source of such religious interpretations. In our infancy, we learned to trust wrong interpretations. Freud himself would tell you God is the product of wishful thinking by an individual who fears the unknown. It can be comforting to imagine that a Father watches over you all the time. But there is also something sinister about this. an Orwellian dystopia where you can be accused of thought crime (you don't even have to do anything). The Big Brother in the sky! :twisted:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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buildit
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby buildit » 02 Oct 2014 22:00

Summerlander wrote:In the Bible, Jesus orders his acolytes to kill non-believers.


Odd I never read that part. Maybe you could point out where Jesus did this in the new testament?

You seem to have your mind made up and even sort of mad about it. Need I point out that the worst atrocity in our worlds history was the persecution of the Jews by an atheist culture called the Nazi's. Lack of religion is as deadly as the over exuberance in it, especially when led by a war lord, king, sycophant or other chrismatic leader capable of twisting meanings to their needs. :(
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Summerlander » 03 Oct 2014 00:24

Actually, as I pointed out in the "Religion and politics: Iraqi Crisis" thread, Hitler was not an atheist. He believed that he was guided by "Providence" and subscribed to the occult and nordic rites. He once even referred to this providence as God in a speech and Mein Kampf clearly justifies the percecution of Jews as God's will. He also made a pact with the Vatican and he never officially renounced Christianity either. So there you have it: a Christian who is responsible for the Holocaust.

Many religious people play the Hitler card in order to argue that atheism is just as destructive. But this has been refuted a thousand times. You could have gone for Stalin, who was in fact an atheist, but then again Stalin did what he did for his own doctrine: his twisted brand of Marxism! And he also employed a pseudo-scientist, Lysenko, in order to mislead his countrymen. He took advantage of many servile people from the old Czarist empire, and simply introduced his dictatorship where he, the head of the state, was to be begged and revered like a superman. Their human god!

To have any sort of argument against what I propose as the best society to have, you'd have to show me a nation who subscribed to the teachings of Lucretius, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Darwin, Newton, Voltaire, Einstein, Dawkins, Hitchens...and other members of the Enlightenment, standing for science and reason, and still fell quarry to war, famine, disease, and depression. I think you won't find one. Not even the Netherlands or Sweden, who have the lowest crime rate and are the most secular, are on that level.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby nesgirl » 03 Oct 2014 00:38

...
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Goodbye forever...
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buildit
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby buildit » 03 Oct 2014 00:57

Summerlander wrote:Actually, as I pointed out in the "Religion and politics: Iraqi Crisis" thread, Hitler was not an atheist. He believed that he was guided by "Providence" and subscribed to the occult and nordic rites. He once even referred to this providence as God in a speech and Mein Kampf clearly justifies the percecution of Jews as God's will. He also made a pact with the Vatican and he never officially renounced Christianity either. So there you have it: a Christian who is responsible for the Holocaust.

Many religious people play the Hitler card in order to argue that atheism is just as destructive. But this has been refuted a thousand times. You could have gone for Stalin, who was in fact an atheist, but then again Stalin did what he did for his own doctrine: his twisted brand of Marxism! And he also employed a pseudo-scientist, Lysenko, in order to mislead his countrymen. He took advantage of many servile people from the old Czarist empire, and simply introduced his dictatorship where he, the head of the state, was to be begged and revered like a superman. Their human god!

To have any sort of argument against what I propose as the best society to have, you'd have to show me a nation who subscribed to the teachings of Lucretius, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Darwin, Newton, Voltaire, Einstein, Dawkins, Hitchens...and other members of the Enlightenment, standing for science and reason, and still fell quarry to war, famine, disease, and depression. I think you won't find one. Not even the Netherlands or Sweden, who have the lowest crime rate and are the most secular, are on that level.

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Well at least you hold Christians to a higher standard than the atheist. But per your request for an atheist who was an evil monster many people agree that Napoleon Bonaparte, heavily involved in the anti-clerical French Revolution, was atheist – he claimed that “all religions have been made by men”. He was one of the best ever military commanders, and conquered much of Europe. He staged a coup and declared himself Emperor. While he ended anarchy in post-Revolution France, many considered him a tyrant and usurper. He ignored treaties and conventions, seeking undisputed rule throughout Europe. He plundered conquered territories. His 17 years of rule resulted in the bankruptcy of France, loss of many of her territories, six million dead Europeans and economic setback in just one generation.
How about Kim Jong-Il? The de facto leader of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, and responsible for the deaths of four million of his fellow Koreans. He is also at the heart of a bizarre personality cult; apocryphal stories such as how “at the time of his birth there were flashes of lightening and thunder, the iceberg in the pond on Mt. Paektu emitted a mysterious sound as it broke, and bright double rainbows rose up” are abundant. Those caught stealing food in the famine-struck nation, or attempting to cross the borders, are subject to public execution. Kim is continuing his lavish lifestyle and military obsession in spite of the crumbling economy. In North Korea he and his father are deified, considered saviors of the whole universe. 250,000 dissidents are confined to “re-education camps”. He has waged a war on South Korea that involved assassinating South Korean leaders and blowing up South Korean planes. He presents a great threat to the world in terms of nuclear warfare, having persuaded the Soviet Union to award him a nuclear reactor in 1984.

Blaming religion for the lack of moral character is like blaming color of skin. It's just a form of bigotry which humans are so good at. :?
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Summerlander » 03 Oct 2014 01:19

Napolean also ignored the teachings of men of the Enlightenment, like Thomas Paine, who also said all religions are manmade - he was a Deist (but venial for his time since science was in its infancy. Like Stalin, Napolean went after the Church for their power, not in the name of disbelief (in God) aka atheism. Your racial analogy also does not wash. Religion texts explicitly exude immorality. Cherry-pickers just ignore the bad parts. And if you are one of those who subscribes to the silly word "Islamophobia," ask yourself why most people think "Muslim" when they hear "suicide bomber." And what do you think the 9/11 hijackers believed in anyway? The Devil? Were they atheists too? Religion makes sane peole commit crazy things...

The Kim family established a necrocracy where the dead leader lives in the son. He is god to those people. At some point they must have read George Orwell's "Nineteen Eighty-Four" and thought, "This is doable." Don't be fooled by the titled "democracy" either. The regime there is not unlike Stalinism. They have established their own religion which subscribes to a form of reincarnation. This isn't promoting science, truth, and reason which naturally leads to atheism. This is promoting a form of theistic fantasy that keeps the people dumb. It's sadomasochism out there. Poor example again, mate.

About Jesus, this is found in John 15:6: "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Luke 19:27: "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them before me."

EDITED

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Last edited by Summerlander on 03 Oct 2014 02:13, edited 6 times in total.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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