Life after death?

For those who wish to discuss the purely scientific aspects of sleep and dreams, including new research and future technologies.
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Summerlander
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Re: Life after death?

Postby Summerlander » 14 Oct 2014 00:44

But you are doing exactly that. You are ignoring that which doesn't fit your worldview. Only what you ignore is based on science, reason and facts.

Brain malfunction can give rise to agnosias where an individual can fail to recognise faces, objects or colours. We can also lose the power of speech, sight, audition etc. etc. All mental faculties can be affected via changes in the brain...

And yet you probably believe that once you are dead, and thus your brain completely destroyed, you will be able to SEE your deceased loved ones, to HEAR them greet you, to RECOGNISE their faces, to UNDERSTAND them, to discern colours in some heavenly realm, and to be more CONSCIOUS than a living person in deep dreamless sleep when their brain is in delta mode.

Keep dreaming, buildit! :-D

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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buildit
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Re: Life after death?

Postby buildit » 14 Oct 2014 00:58

Summerlander wrote:But you are doing exactly that. You are ignoring that which doesn't fit your worldview. Only what you ignore is based on science, reason and facts.


It might seem that way but I am a scientist and have two degrees in it. So I know the textbook, religion is evil, when we die that it the rest is all hippy crap for drug addicts. :roll: But then until I discovered there was a lot of people who control their dreams and not just me, this was all hocus pocus crap too. So now I HAVE to entertain ideas outside the text books or think you are all lying and I am lying to myself.

So are you lying to me? ;)
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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nesgirl
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Re: Life after death?

Postby nesgirl » 14 Oct 2014 01:06

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Last edited by nesgirl on 21 May 2015 02:29, edited 1 time in total.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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Summerlander
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Re: Life after death?

Postby Summerlander » 14 Oct 2014 01:53

nesgirl, what you said is quite oxymoronic. How can an unconscious person lucid dream? If you are unconscious, you are not aware of anything. There is no conscious experience. I'll make this simple by pointing out lucid dreaming's other name: conscious dreaming.

See the contrast? :-D

Now, buildit. First you don't talk like a scientist. But even if you were a renowned scientist, like the numbnut who founded the genome project and was appointed by Obama to head the science department, it still wouldn't make you right or honest or a genius.

If you are not following scientific procedure in your experiments you will get found out. Your peers will want to replicate your experiments to test the veracity of what you found. The scientific community often competes for prizes and recognition!

You could also be a great scientist and still express religiosity. How some can say that they believe in God and an afterlife is a mystery to me. So I sometimes examine what they are about to find out how they can leave their supposed beliefs outside the lab. You know what I usually come across? That they are either lying to keep their religious families happy or they have political agendas. Either way, they are often laughed at by their no-nonsense, more reasonable colleagues who can see right through the bullshit: I use science to study the world, but use faith to believe in the supernatural.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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nesgirl
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Re: Life after death?

Postby nesgirl » 14 Oct 2014 02:08

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Last edited by nesgirl on 21 May 2015 02:30, edited 1 time in total.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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Summerlander
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Re: Life after death?

Postby Summerlander » 14 Oct 2014 02:16

I think you are confused. And if you did dream it must have been during the coming to stage - not the period of unconsciousness. It makes no sense.

Anyway, lucid dreaming is not evidence for an afterlife. Never has been, never will be.

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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nesgirl
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Re: Life after death?

Postby nesgirl » 14 Oct 2014 02:38

...
Last edited by nesgirl on 21 May 2015 02:30, edited 1 time in total.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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Summerlander
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Re: Life after death?

Postby Summerlander » 14 Oct 2014 18:51

No it was definitely while I was unconscious, evidenced because in one of them, I heard the doctors say he was going to flash a bright light in my eyes. This was while I was unconscious.


If you heard the doctors talking, you were aware of sound, their presence, and your situation. If you were aware, you were conscious.

Am I the only one here who sees sense? :mrgreen:

I even told him he said that. Now how could I have possibly known THAT if I was completely unconscious?


Let's say you were unconscious at the time. Your doctor speaks, sound waves travel to your ears and into your brain. It has an effect on brain activity even while you are unconscious. Neurons still register the sound data. When you came to (consciousness enters the scene), the sound data is reported as a "memory" when it actual fact consciousness is just catching up with cerebral alterations that occurred during the unconscious state.

See? No need to postulate a supernatural out-of-body state or the existence of a soul that works independent of bodies and still perceives. :D

And Unconscious Lucid Dreaming doesn't imply evidence for an afterlife Summerland. I know that other people besides myself and others have been able to dream/Lucid Dream unconsciously. I cannot be wrong, because if there are so many surgery stories out there, there obviously is something going on inside an unconscious person's brain.


There is no such thing as an unconscious lucid dream. You can, however, have lucid dreams and not remember them if you don't jot them down in your journal (but later you may recall snippets). This, I'm sorry to say, wasn't your case. You claim that you were conscious during unconsciousness which is not making any sense. :?

Also, as I have mentioned before, NDEs are not proof. After a traumatic experience such as a car accident, about 20% of patients report having had a conscious experience while they were "out." Such experiences didn't necessarily occur when they had minimal brain activity. While they were coming to, blood flow probably caused REM bursts of activity. During this peculiar state they would hallucinate all sorts. They would also perceive time distortions. The mind would work in trying to make sense of what happened to them and a traumatically forced dream state, as the brain struggles into consciousness, would fill the gaps with any fantasy such as the afterlife.

Typical feelings of comfort follow as endorphins are released. They feel they don't fear death any more. They think they are immortal from the epiphany they experienced. It's very solipsistic and egocentric. The mind reverts to an attractive form of deluded survival instinct, like a child thinking everything will always be okay because mummy and daddy are there... :mrgreen:

The remaining 80% of patients report nothing (either they have no souls or the impact of the physical trauma just differed greatly from the others - you make up your mind!). It is funny that nobody is making a claim that there is no afterlife based on the 80%. Why is it that so much significance is assigned to the measly 20%?

Confirmation bias. 8-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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nesgirl
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Re: Life after death?

Postby nesgirl » 14 Oct 2014 19:44

...
Last edited by nesgirl on 21 May 2015 02:31, edited 1 time in total.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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Summerlander
Posts: 3639
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Life after death?

Postby Summerlander » 14 Oct 2014 21:09

So you can hear while unconscious?


No, you can't hear when you are unconscious. You have missed the point again. Sound waves reach your brain but haven't reached consciousness yet because this one is not present. Consciousness gets updated once it emerges. Then you "remember" the sounds as though you were conscious at the time. but this memory is only what has been reported to consciousness.

If the EEG measured me as unconscious when I was conscious


You were NOT conscious... arrrghhhhh! :lol:

Also, maybe you stumbled upon some visual, coincidental hits when it came to the immediate environment. I don't know. If you think there is something there, gather your evidence. You might just prove the afterlife after all! :D
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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