Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

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deschainXIX
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 17 Oct 2014 01:00

nesgirl wrote:It is not a terrible thing. It is an addiction. Someone I know was addicted to a drug, and thought it was a terrible thing to lose it, but finally got used to the fact that they could survive without it, and was able to get off of that drug.


Now, nesgirl, I didn't respond to your last response to me because, upon reading your post, I had the same profound realization that I had when I read over R99's last post in my "Does the Soul Exist?" thread: Some people just want to watch reason burn and there's no point in debating them because a preconceived idea has literally fused into their brain-stem. It's a waste of time and energy.

But I've had to hear this whole absolute nonsense about sexual activity being "addictive" so many times from you that I feel suddenly compelled to respond to that little pearl of wisdom for a variety of reasons--not the least among which being that you keep bringing up this anti-sexuality thing on an anti-religion thread.

First of all, if we're being excruciatingly generous here, your whole "metaphor" about drug addiction being comparable to sex absolutely does not work. Do you realize how insulting that is to people who have genuinely witnessed and suffered from addiction to a truly dangerous substance like methamphetamine? Drug addiction is a sickness that can totally destroy a person's life as a result of the detrimental nature of the drug. Contrarily, have you ever seen a person after they've had sex (clearly not)? They're relaxed, they feel fulfilled, they are simply content with being. They're not "disgusted" or "feel dehumanized." They feel love and contentment towards one another's existence. Comparing methamphetamine addiction to sex is laughable if not outright insulting. More enforcing evidence: A boy and a girl experience something called puberty, in which they feel this inexplicable inclination, this natural intuition or desire to have sex. Sex drive arises naturally during childhood development. Contrarily, I very seriously doubt that there has ever been a person on the face of the earth who has woken up one morning thinking, I really need to go try meth, right now. In fact, I NEED to. It's in my very NATURE to go try out meth. And this leads to my final, destroying point on this metaphor: Drugs are unnatural. Now you may be thinking to yourself, "Hey, marijuana is natural!" Marijuana is dismissed from your metaphor because it does not harm one's health, it does not destroy lives, and it is largely not addictive in natural--in fact it has many medicinal properties. But whether marijuana should be considered a bad or good thing is another argument entirely. The point is that drugs that are a big problem in our society are the unnatural ones. Sex is the absolute opposite! Sex is the perpetuation of the life and nature of complex organisms. Along with a multitude of other living, natural organisms, humans are inherently sexual creatures.

Sex is not addictive. At least not in the traditional sense. It is true that all humans (apart, of course, from asexuals) have a sex drive. But I would argue that this is a good thing, as it draws us humans together and lowers our feelings of prudishness and disdain towards one another. And even if sex was "addictive" in the sense that methamphetamine is, it would not harm people at all and actually would do the opposite.


nesgirl wrote:I don't get why you have to bash on your parents so much. WOW you 2 must hate your parents. I may be fierce rivals with my father and we get into heated arguments almost all the time because of our differences (actually he is a Democrat, so that would explain it), but still.


Summerlander has stated that he appreciated his mother despite all the things he mentioned. And I love both of my parents deeply. But that does not mean I am going to wrap myself in warm, fuzzy blankets of denial and ignorance over the fact that my childhood and psyche were seriously warped and damaged as a result of my parents's profound piety and dogmatism. I've had to struggle with crippling social anxiety, hatred of expressing emotions, closed-mindedness, rejection of science, and many other psychological wires that came loose as a result of the type of things I was exposed to (examples provided above). It is perfectly fine and healthy to critique anything and everything, and that includes discussing whether parenting methods were effective, what was wrong with them, what was right with them, etc. This is the only way you yourself can learn to be a better parent to your own offspring and a better member of society, in the case of having conservative psychopaths as parents.

You seem to think that criticism is indicative of hatred. That is almost as fascinatingly misinformed and ill-conceived as your fascist ideals of illegalizing procreation. :D

(Oh, and by the way, me criticizing your "anti-sex solution" is not me "hating" or "persecuting" you. You cannot play the victim card and use my criticism as an example of you getting hatred for being an asexual. I genuinely like your ideas about being personally anti-romance in the sense the you do not feel compelled by society to be a wholly sexual being, as much media purports and thrusts upon people. What I do not like, what does not hold water in the light of modernity and empathetic discourse, is you forcing those ideals upon others.
If you're so disgusted with people and their nasty, unnatural sexual habits, why don't you just leave them alone, eh? You're clearly the higher, more enlightened being. Just go be hermit.)
Well said.

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nesgirl
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby nesgirl » 17 Oct 2014 01:27

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I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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Summerlander
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 17 Oct 2014 10:40

I feel that you are misconstruing a lot of the statements that me and DeschainXIX made, nesgirl. I invite you to also read a book like "The Selfish Gene." That book is more about altruism than anything else. While genetic units are "selfish" in the way that they try to propagate themselves, at the level of bodies (vessels for genes) we see cooperation and altruism amongst populations as a more effective way to survive. The goal is ultimately selfish as it is in everybody's interests to survive (generally speaking). Even individuals who commit suicide in order to save a close younger relative are in fact favouring their genes. Human beings, by nature, propagate their genes and ensure their survival via copulation and meiosis. We didn't pick this. It was natural selection. Whatever route an organism happens to take in nature, there will always be parasites out there that will try to exploit its mode of survival. There are asexual creatures in the world that have their evolutionary battles and problems too. This is called nature.

By the way, guys, have you seen a film called "The Lone Survivor" starring Mark Wahlberg and Eric Bana? It is based on the true story of Operation Red Wings on the hills of Afghanistan. The Navy SEALs were there to neutralise an al-Qaeda operative as part of a mission ensuring that the country had its democratic elections unencumbered by Taliban operatives and Islamist nationals. It went wrong. It was horrible! Even a chinook was blown to smithereens. The locals were bullied into submission and some were beheaded if they were suspected of helping Americans. The Taliban army in question was later defeated but they subsequently sought reinforcements in Pakistan which led to further American missions. Any way, interesting history and great movie.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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deschainXIX
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 17 Oct 2014 12:01

Yeah, great movie. It was so realistic, some parts were rough to watch! Lol. Those guys took way more bullets than any human being should ever have to. And then when they had no choice but to literally jump down the mountainside? :( I don't really care for Mark Wahlberg, but he had an outstanding performance in that movie.

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Well said.

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nesgirl
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby nesgirl » 17 Oct 2014 18:30

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Summerlander
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 18 Oct 2014 11:32

You see? You've misunderstood me again. It doesn't matter what the individual organism thinks or feels. It all starts with unconscious genetic units. It starts with the "selfish" gene. Genes have phenotypic effects on bodies. DNA replicates itself while bodies, in general, don't. Genes have the potential to be immortal and survive for many generations. Bodies have short lives as they are just vessels. The suicidal person who risks his life to save that of a younger relative is in actual fact aiding the survival of the genes they share. The suicidal person's genes "live" inside the younger relative. The suicidal person is not thinking about saving genes, of course, but he is thinking about saving a loved one. On the surface, by sacrificing himself, his actions are altruistic. At the level of the gene, they are selfish. I hope you get it know. These are not opinions, nesgirl, they are scientific facts and have been mentioned in books like "The Selfish Gene," "The Blind Watchmaker" and "The extended Phenotype."

@ deschainXIX: Tony Montana in Scarface might have taken more bullets! LOL. :-D

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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nesgirl
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby nesgirl » 18 Oct 2014 23:47

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I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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buildit
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby buildit » 19 Oct 2014 00:25

Summerlander wrote:You see? You've misunderstood me again. It doesn't matter what the individual organism thinks or feels. It all starts with unconscious genetic units. It starts with the "selfish" gene. Genes have phenotypic effects on bodies. DNA replicates itself while bodies, in general, don't. Genes have the potential to be immortal and survive for many generations. Bodies have short lives as they are just vessels. The suicidal person who risks his life to save that of a younger relative is in actual fact aiding the survival of the genes they share. The suicidal person's genes "live" inside the younger relative. The suicidal person is not thinking about saving genes, of course, but he is thinking about saving a loved one. On the surface, by sacrificing himself, his actions are altruistic. At the level of the gene, they are selfish. I hope you get it know. These are not opinions, nesgirl, they are scientific facts and have been mentioned in books like "The Selfish Gene," "The Blind Watchmaker" and "The extended Phenotype."


This is a very convoluted argument. However, from this string of logic the dodo bird went extinct so that other birds would be able to live as humans, cats and rats invaded their habitat. :roll: Truth is that there are way more external influences upon life forcing it to adapt and evolve. Even sharks which have remained very similar to their ancestors 1 million years ago have adapted, diversified and evolved.
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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Summerlander
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 19 Oct 2014 00:50

Nesgirl, how you got the impression that me and deschain would rather watch a family die for the sake of genes from what I previously said is beyond me. I merely spoke of the consequences of certain actions by individuals and how these impact on the survival of genes. Like I said before, they are not opinions, just facts. Cause and effect.

Buildit, as I was trying to explain to nesgirl, the suicidal person would not do it for the sake of saving genes. He would do it out of love for the relative in all likelihood.

In the same vein, birds that went extinct didn't consciously will their evolutionary suicide for the sake of saving other species even if that was the outcome of their extinction. Evolution does not have specific goals. There is no room for entelechy here. There are biological as well as environmental pressures leading to change. Natural selection is like a blind watchmaker, to put it poetically as Dawkins did. There is no intelligent designer leading the way. The majority of all the species that have ever walked (or flew or swam) the Earth have gone extinct. In 4 billion years 99% went extinct. There is no purpose there. There is no extinction with the conscious goal of aiding the extancy of other species. Things happen willy-nilly.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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nesgirl
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby nesgirl » 19 Oct 2014 01:15

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Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.


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