Does the Soul Exist?

For all other chat which isn't directly related to lucid dreaming and the world of sleep and dreams.

Is there a soul?

Humans have souls, but animals and other living things do not
1
6%
Both animals and humans have souls
6
38%
The soul does not exist
6
38%
Other
3
19%
 
Total votes: 16

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nesgirl
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby nesgirl » 26 Oct 2014 04:04

I have a theory that would go well with your theory, if it worked. If we are all programming and programmed with physics, then in the future, if someone wants to be mind uploaded, they should have no problem mind-uploading that person's consciousness to a robot, and getting their personality perfectly uploaded to that robot. If what you say is correct, that we are robots, then our brains are programming just like in a real robot, and should be transferrable, just like they are in technology. And because of this, the programming should be able to be saved, and transferred in the future, if that's what the person wants that is. However, if my theories are incorrect, the person will not be the same when transferred to the robot, and will act like an undead zombie when transferred. I think this is a very good way of knowing if our theories are correct or not.

You might want to take that back. With my thought experiment it's possible to have both a penis and a vagina!

You don't know that doesn't leave room for the reproductive organs (ours are located exactly where your reproductive organs are located), so you neuter yourself anyway. Also if your character has a female reproductive system, that system needs belly room to expand. And it isn't going to feel good for that character when going through certain times of the month. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcOV68Gx1YU).
Last edited by nesgirl on 26 Oct 2014 05:19, edited 4 times in total.
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I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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buildit
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby buildit » 26 Oct 2014 04:14

deschainXIX wrote:Yeah, the idea that the body is only a husk for the soul concealed inside which is released upon death is what everyone believes. It's not at all a profound "out of the box" theory about the notion of a soul.

Really, the idea of the soul growing in the body like an embryo and then embarking into the quantum realm is old news? I had no idea you had already come up with this idea. Could you share the other ideas you already have had so I don't duplicate any more of your work?
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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deschainXIX
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby deschainXIX » 26 Oct 2014 19:12

nesgirl wrote:on't insult people who have handicaps.


Relax. I wasn't insulting anyone. I was saying that the idea that the soul is merely humanity's unique level of intelligence and sentience leads to implications that no one really wants to think about.
Anyone who thinks that I was insulting mentally deficient persons out of spite or hatred or ignorance is not paying attention.

HAGART wrote:But now think about this! The brain was not transplanted as a whole from a single donor, but it too is made of many parts. The amygdala from one person, the hippocampus from another. The prefrontal cortex and pituitary gland all from different people.


Yeah, I've thought about that and it truly is fascinating. I think it goes along with the whole idea about the illusion of "the self." If you were to do something like this, a wholly different and unique individual would be produced. There really is no such thing as the "self." Every single moment that passes results in the creation of a being completely separate from the being that you were in the previous moment. It's maddening, if you think about it.

HAGART wrote:You have a one track mind, Nesgirl, and I never mentioned the transplanting of the reproductive organs. I was going to leave that up to everyone's imagination, but it was implied that they too would be transplanted intact. Of course if you choose, you could remove them if it's how you want to envision the thought experiment.


Finally someone said it. :lol:

HAGART wrote:(Another interesting thing to consider is the phenomenon of "Memory Transplant". Many people who get organ transplants change their behavior. I don't know much about it and it could just be Urban Legend, but thought I'd mention it.)


Indeed. Another example of the absence of the self. Especially (since we are sexual beings) in the event of the removal or replacement of sexual organs. That really changes everything about a person.
If you've ever owned a male cat you know what I mean. They're these totally primitive, badass outlaws, hunting and killing things and leaving gory messes everywhere for you to clean up ... until you neuter them. Then they become these weakling, quiet little mouses that sallow around with their heads down, usually only getting up to eat from the milk dish you leave for them.

buildit wrote:Really, the idea of the soul growing in the body like an embryo and then embarking into the quantum realm is old news? I had no idea you had already come up with this idea. Could you share the other ideas you already have had so I don't duplicate any more of your work?


Calm down. I simply found it funny how you always call yourself an "out of the box" thinker.
I'm also desperately confused as to how you thought that I was the one to come up with that idea. I don't believe in a soul, remember? Remember every single post I've made on this thread?
Yes, your ideas are old news. That's what most people who believe in a soul think, do you understand? I stated this in my original comment, but you seem to have skimmed over that detail. Anyway ... as far as all of that quantum theory nonsense, it sounds an awful lot like an excuse, and a lame one. You could quite literally use quantum theory as an excuse for all sorts of nonexistent things.
Well said.

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HAGART
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby HAGART » 26 Oct 2014 21:57

deschainXIX wrote:in the event of the removal or replacement of sexual organs. That really changes everything about a person.


It sure does. And not just spaying or neutering but also adding extra appendages. There are Shemales out there and don't look it up on the internet... Take my word for it! ;)

I only mention that for two reasons:
1. It has to do with my Frankenstein Thought Experiment.
2. (More importantly) I like to take an apposing side to Nesgirl for fun! When it comes to genitalia I say, the more the merrier! Why not? :mrgreen:

Ignoring all sense of self-identity, and whatever sexual-identity we have, at the core we are all the same being no different from anyone else or every other animal or plant for that matter. Maybe that's our 'soul' if you want to think about it poetically. It's not like we can take a picture of it. It's more of an idea in our minds.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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buildit
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby buildit » 26 Oct 2014 23:04

deschainXIX wrote: You could quite literally use quantum theory as an excuse for all sorts of nonexistent things.


How true. It seems lots of theoretical scientists have already figured that out too. :roll: I am glad that you had heard about the idea of the body being an egg for the soul, I had never heard of it before. Ergo my out side the box comment. I figured as a follower of the prove it or it doesn't exist club you would be a person with limited imagination, so giving you credit was a kindness.
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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nesgirl
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby nesgirl » 26 Oct 2014 23:11

deschainXIX wrote:Indeed. Another example of the absence of the self. Especially (since we are sexual beings) in the event of the removal or replacement of sexual organs. That really changes everything about a person.
If you've ever owned a male cat you know what I mean. They're these totally primitive, badass outlaws, hunting and killing things and leaving gory messes everywhere for you to clean up ... until you neuter them. Then they become these weakling, quiet little mouses that sallow around with their heads down, usually only getting up to eat from the milk dish you leave for them.


I don't think anything would change on a person if they got spayed and they were anti-romantic to begin with.

My tomcat wasn't exactly weak when he was neutered. He was actually still pretty mean to nearly everyone, only loyal to me. And he was a rebel, stealing food from the counter, and killing the insects that entered the house. So don't say that animals completely lose their personality when they are neutered. Because my tomcat would have killed any animal that entered the house if given the chance.
Also there are 2 reasons why you neuter your animals besides the fact you gave about them being a bit too mean. One is that they will pee all over your house if you don't to establish their territory. Two is that they are already overpopulated so bad that people are either killing them, abusing them, hoarding them, or abandoning them. So spaying or neutering the animals to control the populations is actually a very humane thing to do at this point, need I go into that more?

It sure does. And not just spaying or neutering but also adding extra appendages. There are Shemales out there and don't look it up on the internet... Take my word for it!




Yes I definitely have seen how the Shemales have changed in personality. I can agree with that one. They are people who won't accept their gender, which I find rather peculiar. Also I hate to be the one to break it to someone, but the DNA tells the truth, and if you were once a guy, you will always be a guy, and same goes for being a female.


I like to take an apposing side to Nesgirl for fun! When it comes to genitalia I say, the more the merrier! Why not?


Yes you would say that being a guy. But remember you are sacrificing your guy reproductive organs for the female ones on these characters, and you have absolutely no idea what your character is about to face having those female organs. Why not look up the female system for yourself? And if the character decides to be a romantic, how it would feel to be in pain and misery for 9 months?

Hey you might want to listen to this beautiful song this lady is singing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm0cRzhZaBc
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 28 Oct 2014 10:58

It seems to me that quantum theory is another "God of the Gaps" get-out-of-jail free card for dualists and vitalists. Can't explain something? That's ok. It must be the quantum realm (and for some reason they think of it as a mystical place) since we don't understand it anyway. Quantum mechanics, as I have said before, fail to explain consciousness. This one arises when a brain has evolved complex enough. That's it. The idea that consciousness is all pervading is also just as bad as the Cartesian theatre. How is the homunculus or soul conscious? Another little guy inside them ad infinitum? It does not explain anything. It is a terribly lame idea and a copout that aims to perpetuate the mystery whilst failing to address the problem properly.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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buildit
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby buildit » 28 Oct 2014 11:34

Summerlander wrote:It seems to me that quantum theory is another "God of the Gaps" get-out-of-jail free card for dualists and vitalists. Can't explain something? That's ok. It must be the quantum realm (and for some reason they think of it as a mystical place) since we don't understand it anyway. Quantum mechanics, as I have said before, fail to explain consciousness. This one arises when a brain has evolved complex enough. That's it. The idea that consciousness is all pervading is also just as bad as the Cartesian theatre. How is the homunculus or soul conscious? Another little guy inside them ad infinitum? It does not explain anything. It is a terribly lame idea and a copout that aims to perpetuate the mystery whilst failing to address the problem properly.


I think NOVA did a whole show on the idea of theoretical science vs hypothetical science. The obvious difference was one could be tested yet it was pointed out science had theorized about atoms long before technology could detect items that size.
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 28 Oct 2014 12:20

Science includes hypotheses and rich theories as part of its methodology. Because of that, it has predictive power. Quantum theory works in practice even though the quantum mechanics themselves are not yet fully understood. Even if quantum mechanics alone were responsible for the emergence of consciousness (which they're not) this would still mean that a physical system is what begets a sense of self. Physicalism would still hold the answer that solves the puzzle. That's why they call it quantum physics!

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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buildit
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby buildit » 28 Oct 2014 21:52

Summerlander wrote:Science includes hypotheses and rich theories as part of its methodology. Because of that, it has predictive power. Quantum theory works in practice even though the quantum mechanics themselves are not yet fully understood. Even if quantum mechanics alone were responsible for the emergence of consciousness (which they're not) this would still mean that a physical system is what begets a sense of self. Physicalism would still hold the answer that solves the puzzle. That's why they call it quantum physics!

You dance and sing as well as the next guy but I'm still not buying a vacuum from you Mr. :lol: There is a whole lot of empty space and frankly as science has shown again and again, the truth is often stranger than fiction. Wasn't many years ago the idea of quantum entanglement would have earned you a seat before the tabloid papers. Now the research is exploding with excitement over how this can be used.
-Science gets things right sooner or later, it just take a lot longer than most people want to wait. I'm just still waiting for them to admit they discovered the soul, even if it doesn't fit the religious paradigm.
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?


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