Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

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nesgirl
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby nesgirl » 28 Oct 2014 20:40

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Last edited by nesgirl on 21 May 2015 03:35, edited 1 time in total.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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deschainXIX
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 28 Oct 2014 22:08

In response to that second paragraph...
Summerlander and I have higher concerns than our own personal discomfort nesgirl. Perhaps I shouldn't put words in his mouth, but I think he would agree. We are concerned about humanity and social progression. We don't hate the bullhorn guy raving on about hellfire simply because he's annoying us. We hate him because he is needlessly terrifying small, innocent children who know no better simply because he's too stupid to understand what he's saying.
Aside from all your undeniably dangerous anti-romance ideals, the likes of which Summerlander and I have destroyed time and time again (and without much effect, it seems--your resilience to words of reason continues to astound me), what really was the last straw for me--what made me finally hang up the phone on your asexual philosophy--was noticing how you consistently admit to your own mental illness.

I'll reply to everything else later. I just wanted to say tha t real quick.

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Well said.

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Summerlander
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 28 Oct 2014 23:50

nesgirl wrote:Black Triangle Island actually depicts many people's experiences with it. I looked up Asexuality and Aromance for myself, and found many stories aromantic people have told, and it is considered a rare form of disability in people. scientists are not completely clear on what causes the disability, and are trying to find out, and are trying to find the cure. In fact most people who are anti-romantic like on that website are likely aromantic as well.


That can't be right. I am calling you out to provide those links where asexuality and anti-romance is considered to be a disability that requires some sort of cure. It says a lot about the source and I would urge you to avoid it. You speak as though romanticism is a worldwide dogma which is clearly not true. Many people like to think of themselves as pragmatists or realists, and yet, they are in relationships and have families. They have no time for romance for a number of different reasons. Some view romance as an irrational, infantile or unrealistic mindset. Sex for these people is purely for pleasure and/or procreation.

Romance is not as ubiquitous as you seem to think it is - certainly not as ubiquitous as sex! Asexuals and unromantics are acknowledged by science but not necessarily diagnosed as abnormal by scientists. Any scientist who deems asexuality or anti-romance as traits that shouldn't be is not holding such an opinion on scientific grounds. Even if differences in the brains of anti-romantics are spotted, as long as they are fully functional and healthy, there is no cause for concern. If anything, antisocial behaviour could be interpreted as a disability because it creates alienation and dangerous adversity. "Aromance" is not the antonym of romance either. :mrgreen:

nesgirl wrote:The story about Joey and Amy was in fact a very similar story I heard about with an Aromantic who didn't understand what was going on with the relationship, because that person only understood friendship and even explained that clearly to their friend, and so that person in fact did feel betrayed and invaded. Aromantics and asexuals are in fact constantly persecuted by others because of their beliefs, especially by religions.


Well, being asexual isn't exactly a belief if your physiology inclines you to feel like that. It is your very nature. You also can't count on religious people to be reasonable. They are people of faith, remember? :D

nesgirl wrote:I don't know what religion you are thinking of, but many religions I have encountered have actually commanded many Aromantics such as myself to change their ways and go into commitment, or they will be sent to hades. A few if they encounter opposite gender singles as BFFs, may actually get pushing and try to force that into a relationship.


I know this. There are arranged marriages and chieftains will arrange for their concubinage. But they also have the concept of adultery and virgins hold a status of divine purity. Sex out of wedlock is salacious, sinful, something that makes the devil smile. Don't forget immaculate conception in Christianity and the 72 virgins that reside in paradise in Islam.

nesgirl wrote:Because Black Triangle Island is pure Aromance, this makes cooperation between each other much easier, and it would make it much easier to improve technology and science with both genders cooperating, which is why I implied the technology and science would evolve so rapidly along with the fact they wouldn't be spending any time in romance.


There is also a lot to be learned from our current biology. We still have many things to piece together in the field of human reproduction and embryology. Eradicating it could be a mistake as it may hold the answers to questions posed in other fields, namely, medical science. To get rid of the reproductive system, and with it the progestational and gestational periods, could mean binning direct opportunities for beneficial discoveries. Even if we find that sexuality appears to stultify our progress, getting rid of it at this point would be premature. You can expect religion to go extinct first. :)

nesgirl wrote:Hey if it were your choice Summer, because religion isn't going to be eliminated anytime soon, would you have your whole organization go to an island and create their own organization and outlaw religion? Now try to picture your island suddenly getting discriminated against with a bunch of religious folk trying to go to the island and trying to declare war on your island when you weren't doing anything wrong to them. Or if a religious castaway was found on your island shores and started breaking your island laws. Now I ask you from your perspective how would you feel? How would you react? Do you understand how I feel now? See when you can't win over society with your wishes (obviously you can't with your hate on religion and I can't with my hate on romance), you can retreat and make a society of your own, and just live in that society of your own, and no matter how much the other societies discriminate against you for it, you can attempt to live out your society in peace and quiet rather than dictate the world.


For starters, I would not outlaw religion. People should be free to believe in and practice whatever they feel is right provided that they don't harm others in the process. I would implement something like the First Amendment, including Thomas Jefferson's separation of Church and State. I would, however, criminalise the brainwashing of children, proselytism in general, and fantasy passed off as truism coupled with the threat of hell. My community would ideally imbibe an enlightening education from the curriculum with great emphasis on established facts. Science and reason would be the tools to use in order to raise awareness of what can potentially improve our quality of living. One of my goals as the leader and representative of this nation of Enlightenment would be, not to suppress or censor bad ideas using force, but to allow their exponents to opine them in open discourse. Everything in my view is open to debate. In this manner, one can legitimately expose bad ideas for what they truly are.

By the way, atheists/secularists are still discriminated against by the pious. Discrimination against people like me isn't something that requires imagination. We have been historically excommunicated, persecuted, tortured, and killed under the "heretic" label. (And yet, today, the pious dare to take offence when we merely criticise their ideology.)

Our demonisation continues to this day. In fact, in the States, as deschainXIX pointed out earlier, it's official! Have you ever heard of a president declaring his atheism live. It's supposed to be, according to the political trend now (and contrary to what the Founding Fathers propounded), a "nation under God." If Obama is an atheist, don't expect him to come out any time soon. At least not until his term is finished... or on his deathbed. :o

As you can see, despite being an atheist, I do not condemn religious people - I criticise what they believe in. I abhor the ideology and the crazy acts it compels sane and otherwise good people to do. I am not, as you do, criticise the very (biological) nature of human beings. I criticise the dogma and the dangerous religious tenets they subscribe to. I am not stopping them from believing what they believe in. I would merely advise them to pay attention to the evidence, to think logically, and to open themselves up to a brighter and more amazing world view. One where truth prevails and where they no longer fear supernatural agents. I know that many religious people have lost their faith and they have thanked atheists for delicately urging them to look through the telescope. It is not their fault they were brainwashed from childhood and I understand when they vehemently defend the voice of unreason for it is all they know. If anything, I am more dumbfounded by converts and religious scientists! :?

My mission is to raise awareness and to criticise bad ideologies. This, at least, makes a few individuals wake up. I am not here to dictate or exact some revenge upon the advocates of faith because I can see they are wrong and for delaying my intellectual progress from childhood. That's not what I'm about despite being aware of the fact that atheism is a crime punishable by death in Saudi Arabia. I am also aware that religion still brings comfort to a lot of people. Religion will go in its own time. (The sooner the better of course.) 8-)

deschainXIX wrote:In response to that second paragraph...
Summerlander and I have higher concerns than our own personal discomfort nesgirl. Perhaps I shouldn't put words in his mouth, but I think he would agree. We are concerned about humanity and social progression. We don't hate the bullhorn guy raving on about hellfire simply because he's annoying us. We hate him because he is needlessly terrifying small, innocent children who know no better simply because he's too stupid to understand what he's saying.
Aside from all your undeniably dangerous anti-romance ideals, the likes of which Summerlander and I have destroyed time and time again (and without much effect, it seems--your resilience to words of reason continues to astound me), what really was the last straw for me--what made me finally hang up the phone on your asexual philosophy--was noticing how you consistently admit to your own mental illness.

I'll reply to everything else later. I just wanted to say tha t real quick.

[ Post made via iPhone ] Image


I especially hate the guys who fiddle with the kiddies because God told them to do so and it must happen otherwise the Devil will come. :twisted:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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nesgirl
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby nesgirl » 29 Oct 2014 19:11

...
Last edited by nesgirl on 21 May 2015 03:37, edited 2 times in total.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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deschainXIX
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 29 Oct 2014 19:43

Wait what. You're getting kicked

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Well said.

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nesgirl
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby nesgirl » 29 Oct 2014 19:57

...
Last edited by nesgirl on 21 May 2015 03:37, edited 1 time in total.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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deschainXIX
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 29 Oct 2014 23:04

It's always fascinated me how things can get so dramatic on a forum. After all, we're all just names on a screen to each other (apart from occasional exceptions). Yeah, can't say I recognize your avatar. I don't see what's offensive about it. I may just be being ignorant, though.
Also, I may disagree with you and even hold a disdain for your ideals, but I would never want you kicked.
Summerlander wrote:I noticed that Robert Pape was mentioned in the conversation between Sam Harris and Cenk Uygur. Pape is a major impediment when it comes to addressing the problem of jihad. People who say, "It's never religion's fault" piss me off. For them it always has to be something more, something "deeper." Nobody really believes in the 72 virgins. It has to be a plot to ward off the democratic invaders. What a lame strawman argument. Pape should read the Quran and then tell Muslims they don't really believe that. See what they say, Pape!

By the way, Michael Zehaf-Bibeau was a Catholic before he converted to Islam! I think the Mosque he was attending has a lot to answer for.


Indeed. It's just a cultural thing. I've noticed that whenever some organization--like a college--wants to flaunt its own ethnic diversity, it always (always) has a picture of a Muslim girl in a hijab. Just an interesting observation. Such interminable portrayals fuse a connection between race and Islam in the public's mind. Now, obviously racism is a terrible thing--like religion, it is shameful that it still exists in society. But these days, connecting race to anything at all immediately (and irrationally) grants that thing a certain hallowed, untouchable sublimity. Even murderous ideals, it seems.
Well said.

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nesgirl
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby nesgirl » 30 Oct 2014 01:29

...
Last edited by nesgirl on 21 May 2015 03:37, edited 1 time in total.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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Summerlander
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 30 Oct 2014 13:36

nesgirl wrote:Summer, I am going to have to cease this argument with you and Deschain. My time on here is coming to an end. Because I can no longer try to even try to compromise with you, maybe I should have loosened my arguments before I was going to get kicked off of here. Now it is too late for that. All I have enough time for now is to say goodbye.


I have always said that all opinions are welcome and every subject is open to debate. I am not asking for a compromise here. I want points of view voice so that bad ideas can be exposed and we can all move forward in our understanding.

nesgirl wrote:I thought I was getting kicked off after getting reported by a user (there were very likely a few others who reported me) who implied he was ensuring it and said he wanted me gone forever, and I even PMed a mod myself and literally begged them to erase me for the sake of the others (again). My fate is still uncertain, because I don't know yet if I am going to get banned by another mod or Rebecca yet or not (although it is likely), but I am getting lectured by Peter for the time being. Although you and Summer probably at this point want me gone anyways, so it doesn't really matter anymore.


I speak for myself when I say that I do not want you gone. I don't agree with censorship even if you espoused Nazism here. Like I said, views need to be aired in order for us to address keys points and raise awareness about a subject in general. You have contradicted me and deschainXIX in certain areas but the thread has been enriched because of it.

deschainXIX wrote:It's always fascinated me how things can get so dramatic on a forum. After all, we're all just names on a screen to each other (apart from occasional exceptions). Yeah, can't say I recognize your avatar. I don't see what's offensive about it. I may just be being ignorant, though.
Also, I may disagree with you and even hold a disdain for your ideals, but I would never want you kicked.


I share the same sentiments.

deschainXIX wrote:Indeed. It's just a cultural thing. I've noticed that whenever some organization--like a college--wants to flaunt its own ethnic diversity, it always (always) has a picture of a Muslim girl in a hijab. Just an interesting observation. Such interminable portrayals fuse a connection between race and Islam in the public's mind. Now, obviously racism is a terrible thing--like religion, it is shameful that it still exists in society. But these days, connecting race to anything at all immediately (and irrationally) grants that thing a certain hallowed, untouchable sublimity. Even murderous ideals, it seems.


I've noticed that too. I should know because I recently took my son to many school open days. All prospectuses showed that type of diversity for the sake of reputation, appearances, and political correctness. To not have it is criminal in the minds of some. It is a mad world we are living in. The hijab must be shown. :roll:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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nesgirl
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby nesgirl » 30 Oct 2014 18:45

...
Last edited by nesgirl on 21 May 2015 03:38, edited 1 time in total.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.


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