Crazy Idea

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dreamstudent
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Joined: 21 Sep 2014 07:24

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby dreamstudent » 31 Oct 2014 06:19

I feel this way too.. The reality of an LD can seem more real than this one. Not to mention exciting..

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Summerlander
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Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby Summerlander » 31 Oct 2014 10:15

"seem more real" doesn't make it more real or objectively real for that matter. Schizophrenics can also be absolutely convinced about the reality of their delusions...

In the waking state, the brain creates a phenomenological model of reality according to sensory input. It has its own way of interpreting the incoming data. The subjective picture feels very real. At night, when we sleep, the brain no longer heeds external information but it already contains sufficient endogenous material that permits it to create "realities" of its own, worlds that are only real insofar as subjectivity go and therefore have no basis on the real world. Such subjectively made-up worlds are the perception of inner creations. They are called dreams. If you know they are dreams whilst having them then you are lucid dreaming. That's all.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

CosmickGold
Posts: 6
Joined: 04 Nov 2014 05:03

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby CosmickGold » 04 Nov 2014 17:07

I'm convinced the dream world IS a real place, and not so separated from the "physical" world. Here are some reasons why I'm convinced:

(1) I and many others have had what's called "Mutual Dreams", where you wake up and learn that the other person in your dream remembers it too! And you prove it to each other by each asking the other questions only someone there could possibly know. There are a number of books on this subject; one documents over 200 such dreams and is titled "Mutual Dreaming" by Linda.... So how could people share dreams, if the dreams were not happening in real places?

(2) In one mutual dream I had with a friend, we were investigating an unfinished hotel that didn't have sheetrock on the walls yet. Three years later we found that hotel, and six years later we purchased it. There were many other details (besides that lack of sheetrock) that proved it truly was the building we saw in our mutual dream. How could we see and explore a real place we'd never been to, if dreams were not closely linked to physical reality and real themselves?

(3) There is a metaphysical teaching that "As above, so below", meaning what you experience and do in your dreams, filters down into physical reality, and that you can change what will happen in the physical by imagining a better ending to the dream. I did this once when waking up startled from a dream where I didn't see a car stalled on a bridge until I smashed into it. A couple of days later, I recognized the bridge, remembered the dream, and slammed on my breaks well before ever seeing the stalled car. And yes, the stalled car really was there. That dream prevented the crash, and was certainly very real.

(4) A related field called "Astal Projection" or "Out Of Body Experience" is where a person experiences their spirit separating from their physical body which can often see their body left behind in the bed, and either go investigate things in the physical world (which they can later prove real) or go experience the 'astral' world. Since this experience can turn into a dream, and dreams can turn into this experience, I think it another proof dreams are real.

(5) I have the theory that dreams only seem less real because there is a memory barrier between dream and waking consciousness. When in the dream, it is the physical world that seems like a faintly remembered dream; just as while in the physical, the night experience seems unreal. If without the memory barrier, we'd know it was real, and find easy ways to prove it real.

I'm smiling about the joyous experiences you've had there. Yes, they were real!

kel21139
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Joined: 20 Oct 2014 17:37

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby kel21139 » 04 Nov 2014 19:33

CosmickGold wrote:I'm convinced the dream world IS a real place, and not so separated from the "physical" world. Here are some reasons why I'm convinced:

(1) I and many others have had what's called "Mutual Dreams", where you wake up and learn that the other person in your dream remembers it too! And you prove it to each other by each asking the other questions only someone there could possibly know. There are a number of books on this subject; one documents over 200 such dreams and is titled "Mutual Dreaming" by Linda.... So how could people share dreams, if the dreams were not happening in real places?




I'll check out the book your referenced when I get a chance, mutual dreaming is something I've heard about before so I'll have to look deeper in it . I think I read mutual dreaming in this book called "Holographic Universe", where also supposedly this guy dreamed of spaghetti or something and when he woke up there was spaghetti or noodles in his bed with no possible explanation.
I too have experienced similar events as you mentioned with something happening in the dreamworld and then later in the real world, although nothing as drastic as dodging a car accident or finding a tangible building exactly as in a dream .
I haven't leaned too heavily in learning more about "Astral Projection" but with what your saying seems to confirm in a little way one of my theories that when we dream we may be astral projecting to other planes by accident. I feel like there's this hidden message in my dreams to a greater knowledge of existence or something , I don't know how to describe it but I feel dreams are the portal to this answer. Thank you for your response, its really helpful in giving me more pathways to search.

CosmickGold
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Joined: 04 Nov 2014 05:03

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby CosmickGold » 04 Nov 2014 22:39

WOW you answered fast! I wrote my reply to your original post, then came back a couple hours later and found you'd already replied!

How did you know I'd written something? Do you get an email when someone responds to a message? I checked my email but didn't see any notification about your response to me.

Here are a few more of my experiences that might give you some ideas of what to try, and/or what to research:
__________________

When I was in the 6th grade, I had gone to bed, and decided I wanted to see someone else's dream. (I don't know why I got that idea, or why I believed I could do it, but I did.) As I watched, my mind saw the other person was dreaming that a baseball player was standing on top of a steep hill, swinging his bat at baseballs that flew by as though being pitched by someone out of sight. This then changed to a scene of about 30 tires rolling and bouncing down that same hill. This changed once again into cars smashing together at high speeds (no people inside, just the cars), with close-ups of their metal bending and twisting from the force of the speedy crashes. This woke the dreamer up with a startle. The dream being over, I was satisfied with what I'd seen and went to sleep.

The next day at school during lunch, I thought again about watching that dream, and told the other kids at the table about it, and how it was someone else's dream I'd watched. I couldn't remember the middle part, so only told about the baseball player and the crashing cars. The boy straight across the table from me announced, "That was MY dream." I didn't believe him, and so asked him what the middle part was. He quickly answered with total confidence, "Tires rolling down a hill." I'd not mentioned the dream to anyone prior to this, so he was clearly telling the truth.

To me the fact I saw another's dream is not the amazing part. The amazing thing is that with billions of people in the world, I would see the dream of the kid that would sit across the table from me the next day, and that I would think to tell the story at that specific time. Whether some unseen factor KNEW the future and selected the boy who would sit across the table from me, or if some unseen factor ARRANGED for the boy to be at my table at that time, either possibility is amazing. Personally, I think the future already exists and can be seen.

But something perhaps equally astonishing is my "forgetting" the middle part until he reminded me. Why did I forget? No logical reason to have forgotten. Evidently, either a hidden part of myself -- or something like a 'guardian angel' -- caused me to forget the tires rolling down the hill, so that I would have PROOF the boy was telling me the truth by his knowing the part untold.
__________________

Regarding noodles in the bed, I'm convinced that is possible. I had the experience at age six of water from my squirt gun turning into solid drops of concrete, still there 3.5 years later at least. Recently, I was almost ready to believe it didn't really happen, due to everyone telling me you can't do that even with magick, and the fact that it really does totally violate the laws of physics as we know them, on the atomic level.

But then I saw a documentary on The Scole Experiement in which scientists participated in a "hands on" way, and were convinced the events they experienced were real and beyond their understanding. One of many things that happened was a newspaper materialized on the table from the 1920's, in pristine condition. Analysis of the paper and the chemistry of the ink showed it to be the real thing. So now my water to concrete (or as you said, noodles) doesn't seem too extraordinary at all.
__________________

If you are interested in persuing "Out Of Body" experience, or "Lucid Dreams", investigate
http://www.lucidology.com/blog/category/lucidology-101/
Also, the 70 minute instructional video offered at
http://www.saltcube.com/
seems worth the $19 purchase price I paid for it.

__________________

And last but not least, the book titled THE SECRET by Rhonda Byrne really works to control the events in all parts of one's life. And Amazon sells the book for only ONE PENNY! (...plus $3.99 shipping.) I bought four extra copies this way to give to my friends. Go to:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1582701709/ref=sr_1_1_twi_1_olp?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415136215&sr=1-1&keywords=the+secret
to get it.
__________________

It's wonderful to have met someone who has so much intelligence, interest, and respect, making corresponding well worth while.

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nesgirl
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Re: Crazy Idea

Postby nesgirl » 04 Nov 2014 23:17

CosmickGold wrote:I'm convinced the dream world IS a real place, and not so separated from the "physical" world. Here are some reasons why I'm convinced:

(1) I and many others have had what's called "Mutual Dreams", where you wake up and learn that the other person in your dream remembers it too! And you prove it to each other by each asking the other questions only someone there could possibly know. There are a number of books on this subject; one documents over 200 such dreams and is titled "Mutual Dreaming" by Linda.... So how could people share dreams, if the dreams were not happening in real places?


It's a form of Probability Lucid Dreaming if you happen to match words, ideas, or whatever with the subject. Because it happens due to luck. Also similar Lucid Dreams because you and the friend program each other's DCs in the Lucid Dream don't mean you are sharing in the least if you 2 know what you are doing and are expertly trained. Although I will say you and your friend can test probability if you so desire in your Lucid Dreams in the exact same ways I would test present probability in a WILD (this is how my Lucid Dream friends and I tested our LD Idea Collision probability back in high school). Test experiment 1 is that you leave either a random card face up on the counter or an unread open book on your counter. Then have your friends fly over and meet you over at your house. Each of you must examine the card or read the open book. If you and each of your friends manage to remember what you read in the book or the exact card symbol, and they all match, they you managed to hit Idea Collision probability. If it happens to match the one in real life, then you and your friends managed to hit probability twice and get very lucky (actually in terms of math, hitting probability in 2 different forms is possible, I don't underestimate those laws, as lightning can hit in the same spot twice)


(2) In one mutual dream I had with a friend, we were investigating an unfinished hotel that didn't have sheetrock on the walls yet. Three years later we found that hotel, and six years later we purchased it. There were many other details (besides that lack of sheetrock) that proved it truly was the building we saw in our mutual dream. How could we see and explore a real place we'd never been to, if dreams were not closely linked to physical reality and real themselves?


Like I said before, you can have 2 forms of probability Lucid Dreams, and if your friend's Lucid Dream was similar to yours and both were coincidentially about an event that happened later, then that would make them about 2 forms of probability.
Also I've had a several probability Lucid Dreams (WILDs) where I've flown around places I've never been to before, then they've matched the real life places, although they are more on the lines of present probability rather than future. Often I even get the weather and everything down as well. My Lucid Dream friends had the same thing happen to them.

(3) There is a metaphysical teaching that "As above, so below", meaning what you experience and do in your dreams, filters down into physical reality, and that you can change what will happen in the physical by imagining a better ending to the dream. I did this once when waking up startled from a dream where I didn't see a car stalled on a bridge until I smashed into it. A couple of days later, I recognized the bridge, remembered the dream, and slammed on my breaks well before ever seeing the stalled car. And yes, the stalled car really was there. That dream prevented the crash, and was certainly very real.


It's called sensing danger, and it doesn't have to be in a dream to be able to do that. Something some animals are born with. Actually when my sister first got married to a guy, I instinctively knew this guy was bad, and I told her and the others, "I DO NOT like this guy. There was something about him I just did not like. As it turned out 2 years later, he stole her money and bankrupted her.

(4) A related field called "Astal Projection" or "Out Of Body Experience" is where a person experiences their spirit separating from their physical body which can often see their body left behind in the bed, and either go investigate things in the physical world (which they can later prove real) or go experience the 'astral' world. Since this experience can turn into a dream, and dreams can turn into this experience, I think it another proof dreams are real.


I don't think so. Why not look up Wake Induced Lucid Dream? If you are having a Dream Body Controlled WILD and are in SP, you are in the process of transferring your consciousness from the real world to your dream body in a Lucid Dream (and your bedroom is actually a dream bedroom). Once you are within your Dream Body, your task is to lift your dream body away from you bed (my method is just to get my dream body up and then start flying), and then lift your dream body away from your dream bed.
As for why your WILD can have just as much memorized clarity as reality and not shift, that is because if the user's memory is that highly memorized, the dream world can be as well. In fact testing memorization with notes would just test the level of memorization in the Lucid Dream. And as far as testing probability like with cards and randomly written notes, a very high level of clarity in Lucid Dreaming could in fact press their luck in Probability, and in fact just like in reality where it is possible to guess random things right with probability, it is in fact possible to guess random things right with probability in a Lucid Dream. However this is not your control that is doing this. This is how the mathematical programming of the universe is controlling it, and the numbers are just so happening to land in your favor, because that is how probability works. In fact it would be no different if someone in front of an audience were to approach a slot machine and say, "I am going to hit all three 7s on the slot machine today!" And then by some lucky chance, he does hit all 7s on the slot machine.
I myself have had some very lucky coincidences with Lucid Dream probability with what many would call Dream Spying. However, I consider that as much of a coincidence as finding a shiny Pokémon, so personally it doesn't matter.

(5) I have the theory that dreams only seem less real because there is a memory barrier between dream and waking consciousness. When in the dream, it is the physical world that seems like a faintly remembered dream; just as while in the physical, the night experience seems unreal. If without the memory barrier, we'd know it was real, and find easy ways to prove it real.

I'm smiling about the joyous experiences you've had there. Yes, they were real!

Dreams are not real, you need to realize that. If you can tell the difference between reality and dreaming, you can and will be able to enjoy them with such wonderful experiences. Lucid Dreaming is so wonderful, and you can enjoy it so much more if you just realize it and accept it for what it is.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

CosmickGold
Posts: 6
Joined: 04 Nov 2014 05:03

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby CosmickGold » 05 Nov 2014 02:19

Wow, nesgirl. That's quite a reply. Lots of thoughts and experiences.

It seems you are a lot more able to experience these things than I am at this point in time. I hope my abilities will grow as yours have.

The one thing I don't understand though, is why you seem so determined to believe and say that these inner-world experiences are not real, that they don't happen in real places, the people don't really share dreams together, that we don't actually see the physical world from the astral body, etc. (...assuming I've got your meanings right.) Why must it all be a mathematically explainable coincidence, rather than fact?

For me, it would be a huge loss if the inner experiences were not real, and/or not directly connected to our physical-world. I know that when you truly believe something is not real, the universe will bend over backwards to prove to you its not real (and visa versa), that's part of the magic of the "mind over matter" universe we live in. Therefore, there is no way to argue the point, no way to prove anyone "wrong". But why is it so important to you that the inner experiences of astral travel and dreams be only imaginary?

You explained that "Dreams are not real,...you can enjoy it so much more if you just realize it and accept it for what it is." But for me the opposite is true. It is so much more meaningful for me to be doing real things there, and sharing with real people there, confident that what I do in the astral and in dreams will filter down meaningfully into physical reality.

A collage professor of metaphysics once told me, "When you wonder whether someone in your dream is real or just your own mind's creation, reach out and touch them. When they are real, the feeling is totally, and unmistakably different. You'll know."
Last edited by CosmickGold on 05 Nov 2014 03:39, edited 1 time in total.

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nesgirl
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Re: Crazy Idea

Postby nesgirl » 05 Nov 2014 03:31

CosmickGold wrote:Wow, nesgirl. That's quite a reply. Lots of thoughts and experiences.

It seems you are a lot more able to experience these things than I am at this point in time. I hope my abilities will grow as yours have.


I have had a lot of WILDs, I have had WILDs since I was really little. I have used the technique to control my dream body to enter a WILD since I was in high school. I have also had much experience with probability Lucid Dreams. Actually I didn't even know what Lucid Dreams where when I was in high school. When I started controlling my dream body to enter my WILDs, my Lucid Dreams became more unusual, however it was when I started to have probability in my Lucid Dreams, that I became very curious and wanted to find out. In fact the very first time I confirmation biased a probability Lucid Dream was when my boss dared me to put a random Pokémon card from my box of them in a drawer. I then learned about probability being possible from my psychiratrist. And while I did have a few other probability Lucid Dreams before my Big sister finally told me about Lucid Dreaming, she also told me the same thing, telling me that it happens in the casinos in Las Vegas.

The one thing I don't understand though, is why you seem so determined to believe and say that these inner-world experiences are not real, that they don't happen in real places, the people don't really share dreams together, that we don't actually see the physical world from the astral body, etc. (...assuming I've got your meanings right.) Why must it all be a mathematically explainable coincidence, rather than fact?

Because I love my Lucid Dreams. And while you may not understand your experiences are dreams as well, the Lucid Dream world is such a wonderful place. When you are in a Lucid Dream, you can do, control, and do whatever you want and there is no consequence. Picture yourself being able to control what type of weather you want at any given time, or creating characters with any type of personality you want. How abut eating whatever you want without gaining any weight? How about being in a reality where no one is going to criticize you? Lucid Dreaming is like being in your own reality, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.
People cannot share dreams, because dreams are like 2 designs in Multimedia created by 2 artists. There has never been nor will there ever be 2 visual designs that will ever match 100%, and there is in fact evidence for it. While the descriptions for designs have been exact, and there have been probability times where words and even paragraphs that have matched, the visual art on the designs have never matched.
Personally I really doubt (and I hope) a person can just die in their sleep, and return to life. Even with NDEs there is a bit of a doubt that they even go anywhere at all, that it all just happens in their head. I myself have had an unconscious Dream during an EEG, and a medical KO Dream during a to know that. Each one of those was a typical cloning and flying around the medical room observing things and watching what was going on. However I was aware the whole time I was in a dream in both situations so it didn't have me fooled at all. Although it was interesting in the colonoscopy dream watching the procedure being done right on my clone (cloning is pro-science), and watching them take the pictures.

If you actually believe these experiences are real, then why don't you record yourself having them on a full spectrum camera, and show me the YouTube videos of yourself having them in addition to hitting probability? If you can show me exact footage, then maybe it'll be easier for me to listen to you.

For me, it would be a huge loss if the inner experiences were not real, and/or not directly connected to our physical-world. I know that when you truly believe something is not real, the universe will bend over backwards to prove to you its not real (and visa versa), that's part of the magic of the "mind over matter" universe we live in. Therefore, there is no way to argue the point, no way to prove anyone "wrong". But why is it so important to you that the inner experiences of astral travel and dreams be only imaginary?


Because they aren't real. Why would I want them to be real. Reality can be so frustrating and a pain to deal with sometimes.
Also why would I want to imagine myself dying and going to the afterlife? That sounds way too frightening.
Actually it is much better to have a dream body controlled WILD, fly away from my bedroom, then travel to the Alien World (no real aliens), and go to Area Y27. Which is a really nice area with friendly DCs and is a big open field with pretty colors. Really nice and peaceful and a great place to meditate.

You explained that "Dreams are not real,...you can enjoy it so much more if you just realize it and accept it for what it is." But for me the opposite is true. It is so much more meaningful for me to be doing real things there, and sharing with real people there, confident that what I do in the astral and in dreams will filter down meaningfully into physical reality.


Well there are ways you can fulfill things in the real world through Lucid Dreaming if you really wanted to. If you decide that you want to practice your talents in a Lucid Dream for example or find new talents, these actions actually will reflect your skill level in the real world, and you will find yourself becoming much better at those talents. Dreams may not be real, but you can affect your true abilities in the real abilities. And you can create your own characters.

A collage professor of metaphysics once told me, "When you wonder whether someone in your dream is real or just your own mind's creation, reach out and touch them. When they are real, the feeling is totally, and unmistakably different. You'll know."


Most people make that mistake when learning how to Lucid Dream. When you Lucid Dream, you need to learn now to rely too much on that.
And while I have some WILDs that I don't have my mood swings at all, I am not fooled. I may have had some unusual WILDs, but I still believe they are WILDs because anything can happen in a Lucid Dream

this guy dreamed of spaghetti or something and when he woke up there was spaghetti or noodles in his bed with no possible explanation.


You ever hear of sleepwalking? That is a pretty common sleep disorder that happens to people where they will walk around the house and they may eat, watch TV, exercise, or much worse, while sleepwalking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleepwalking
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

CosmickGold
Posts: 6
Joined: 04 Nov 2014 05:03

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby CosmickGold » 05 Nov 2014 20:03

nesgirl wrote: I love my Lucid Dreams.... the Lucid Dream world is such a wonderful place. When you are in a Lucid Dream, you can do, control, and do whatever you want and there is no consequence.

[But my Lucid Dreams] aren't real. Why would I want them to be real. Reality can be so frustrating and a pain to deal with sometimes.


That's the heart of the difference between your thinking and mine, and I see it as such an important difference. The book titled THE SECRET by Rhonda Byrne explains wonderfully that since "Mind" created "Matter" (and not the other way around), "Mind" still has the ability to control "Matter". The book explains so well how to bring anything you want into physical reality much as you do in your Lucid Dreams. You can do/have/be anything you want, right here in the physical.

The book (actually by more than 20 experienced authors) doesn't talk about Lucid Dreaming, but the principals for bringing about the reality you want into your physical life apply the same from your Lucid Dreams. Some teachers (in other books) say you can do it even better from Lucid Dreams, stating that's where the "controls" are for creating here in the physical.

So I wish you were willing to see that you could take that beauty and wonderfulness from your Lucid Dreams, and use it to "magically" create the same right here in your physical life, replacing that "so frustrating and a pain" you spoke of. Others have already done so.

By believing the dream world is totally unreal, prevents the experience of it from directly influencing your physical reality. And likewise, believing the physical world to be totally real, prevents you from seeing how your thoughts and emotions can directly manipulate physical reality. So your dreams remain wonderful and the physical remains a frustrating pain.

It doesn't have to be that way. But since the mind is in control of both worlds (or rather, both aspects of the one world), your thoughts will keep dreams unreal, and the physical too rigid to fix. That's both sad and unnecessary.

kel21139
Posts: 5
Joined: 20 Oct 2014 17:37

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby kel21139 » 05 Nov 2014 21:01

CosmickGold wrote:WOW you answered fast! I wrote my reply to your original post, then came back a couple hours later and found you'd already replied!

How did you know I'd written something? Do you get an email when someone responds to a message? I checked my email but didn't see any notification about your response to me.


Lol Just happened to log in and saw your post at that time. I would believe the concrete from the squirt gun, laws of physics are only what we understand of physics not the actually laws of them. For example, particle/wave duality (and forgive me because I'm rusty on this subject) but this would explain how one reality can intertwine with another. Both realities are possible but our preconceptions of what will happen based on our experience or learned mind set will mostly determine the outcome. Definitely feel free to correct me if I've got the concept of that wrong. If you've read any of my other post so far I may be biased in hoping that dreams are alluding to something so much greater than we realize but hey what's wrong with hoping if there's not yet 100% proof to the contrary right? So for now I believe as you or similar that there are other realities we can touch through our dreams. From a feeling in my gut or burned deep down into my soul I keep searching for this something, this whatever that dreams seem to be teasing me with. I hate to mix and match the two but I also have this feeling with contemplating with the existence after death of which my dreams allude to a lot.

One dream was with Death embodied as a girl. She was dressed in black robes, and had long silky black hair that flowed like water against her pale white skin. She stood there with her scythe hanging lazily to her side. For some reason I knew were were friends, and I knew I could trust her. Apparently we were on a quest of which I would have to travel through hell for, but in order to do so I would have to exit my fleshly body. There was a door in the middle of a wasteland riddled with desolate mountains and hills. This door was ominous and foreboding with arcane symbols painted bright red across its black metallic surface. When Death opened the door only partially, I could see it was pitch black inside as she walked through and beckoned me to follow. I approached the door slowly only to be pulled by coagulated blood as it wrapped around me like tentacles and pulled me against an invisible wall just inside the door way . I could feel my bones and flesh being crushed with impossible force as the life was squeezed out of me in the most painful way. I felt my soul being ripped through the wall where my flesh could not follow as if pressed through a grate with microscopic holes. I couldn't breathe or scream as everything faded out in pain and horror. After that it was as my vision came into focus, I could see pillars of thick black smoke rising into the air. High above as if the sky itself, was a cavern ceiling with mile long stalactites hanging downward. Now our journey could begin as I was no longer a fleshly being...................

||Sorry for the long detail but this dream is one that gave me that indescribable feeling of some deeper knowledge that my subconscious may know but that I don't while awake. I literally felt like I had died in that dream and even after I was awake i still had that feeling I had died and came back to life. It's hard to describe really well but the pain felt real, the fear of that feeling even followed me after i woke up.


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