Where are our Dreams?

For general lucid chat - ask questions, share advice, set lucid dream challenges and explore the lucid realm together.
Snaggle
Posts: 590
Joined: 02 Oct 2011 13:08

Re: Where are our Dreams?

Postby Snaggle » 07 Feb 2012 07:22

KylePK wrote:
Peter wrote: some agreement is here that the LD is in our head so what do you mean by another dimension, keen to get thoughts on this


Planes of existense? I guess. Physical, astral, metaphysical, I don't know haha there is too much speculation to accurately describe anything related to that.


Since any reasonable opinion has to be based on evidence, we might well ask what the evidence shows. Accounts of spiritual realms are as ancient as mankind, unfortunately they don't agree about what that spiritual realm is like, leading to the obvious conclusion that astral worlds whether in OBE or NDE are creations of the subject's own mind. Whether or not there is a spirit that actually can exist separately from the body is another question. There are lots of examples of consciousness existing when the brain and brain stem are flat lined implying that a spirit might be real, e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqDB-k Naturally the existence of a spirit does not imply that it survives ultimately or even that it has an afterlife that lasts much beyond the death of the body.

OOBEs are nothing but lucid dreams. Any sensation can be reproduced in the dream world. Most of the time, the environment one encounters upon an apparent separation from the body is one which is incongruent with reality. If the immediate environment happens to emulate your bedroom, for example, it is always localised. Further exploration will reveal inconsistencies. Even that which you think is accurate in the experience can be revealed to be inacurate upon proper inspection of the real thing and comparison in wakefulness.


Summerland is a materialistic monist and has a very dogmatic personality that always seems to reduce everything to his prejudices. You should listen to him for balance as every opinion will help one form the picture of the possible and then following the evidence will show one which possibility is most likely.
"There is only one God and his name is Death.
And there is only one thing we say to death "not today"
- Syrio Forel

User avatar
jet199
Posts: 14
Joined: 01 Feb 2012 15:03

Re: Where are our Dreams?

Postby jet199 » 07 Feb 2012 10:46

Since any reasonable opinion has to be based on evidence, we might well ask what the evidence shows. Accounts of spiritual realms are as ancient as mankind, unfortunately they don't agree about what that spiritual realm is like, leading to the obvious conclusion that astral worlds whether in OBE or NDE are creations of the subject's own mind.


I can't agree with this. Maybe if you only include religious world views but those are often metaphorical rather than based on spiritual experiences. In fact ideas about the spirit world are quite similar across the world as those who have studied shamanism have found. This is because the human brain works the same way no matter what race you are or what culture you grew up in. For instance reports of an otherworld, people mistakenly go to, where they are seduced by beautiful women, occur in most cultures.
"The real question is not whether there is life after death. The real question is whether you are alive before death" - Osho

Snaggle
Posts: 590
Joined: 02 Oct 2011 13:08

Re: Where are our Dreams?

Postby Snaggle » 08 Feb 2012 03:11

Just curious are you one of Michael Harner's followers? I was using concepts of the spirit and NDE and spirit journeys for my opinion.Emanuel Swedenborg, Edgar Cayce and Blavatsky could all be considered "shamen" and they did not agree with eat other. Tantric Hinduism and Buddhism both practice spirit journeys and lucid dreaming in fact it was from tantric yoga that the west started pirating "astral travel" and lucid dreaming starting in the 19th century. They don't agree on the composition of the spirit (aka how many there are and what they're like) the same is true of Kabbalah and ceremonial magic and the western occult. Of course the traditional western occult (seidr) was real shamanism http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/seidhr.shtml
"There is only one God and his name is Death.
And there is only one thing we say to death "not today"
- Syrio Forel

User avatar
jet199
Posts: 14
Joined: 01 Feb 2012 15:03

Re: Where are our Dreams?

Postby jet199 » 08 Feb 2012 12:31

I don't really know who Michael Harner is I'm afraid. I studied archaeology and specialised in prehistory and human evolution.
I don't think the important point is whether people agree on the exact construction of the universe.( If you asked three people to walk in and out of a room and then describe it to you they would give three very different descriptions but that wouldn't mean that the room didn't exist.) I think the more interesting point is that spirit journeys or indeed the idea that people have a spirit at all occur in almost all cultures. This is because humans are not a very diverse bunch, their brains work in much the same ways and when they close their eyes they see similar things, hear similar voices. The definition of shamanism that I was using, the sense it is used in academic works, is the idea that there are certain universal spiritual experiences which can be observed by anthropologists, in culture and belief systems, and by archaeologists in human materials and landscapes.
Of course a lot of cultural crap gets put on top of any experience. In Norse mythology three was considered a magic number so their universe was divided up into three levels which three worlds on each. There is no indication that this comes from observation, it's just an attempt to make a cultural idea appear universal. Sleep paralysis happens across the world but people see something different sitting on their chests depending on what culture they are from.
I think that the main reason that astral travel became popular in the west was the Victorian obsession and fear of death and spiritualism was formed from quite a few different sources not only eastern. The stereotypical medium has a native American guide and is the reincarnation of a pharaoh.
"The real question is not whether there is life after death. The real question is whether you are alive before death" - Osho

User avatar
Summerlander
Posts: 3655
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Where are our Dreams?

Postby Summerlander » 08 Feb 2012 15:14

Vikings believed the eclipse was Skoll, the wolf god swallowing the sun. They used to scream and growl to scare him away and surely enough, in their minds, it worked because the sun "returned". Now we know their raucousness had nothing to do with it. :roll:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

Snaggle
Posts: 590
Joined: 02 Oct 2011 13:08

Re: Where are our Dreams?

Postby Snaggle » 09 Feb 2012 01:51

Summerlander wrote:Vikings believed the eclipse was Skoll, the wolf god swallowing the sun. They used to scream and growl to scare him away and surely enough, in their minds, it worked because the sun "returned". Now we know their raucousness had nothing to do with it. :roll:


There are two parts to this both being false.

"Vikings believed the eclipse was Skoll, the wolf god swallowing the sun. "-Summerland Skoll was not a "wolf god" he and his brothers (Hatti and Managarm) are the children of Fenrir and the witch Gulveig-Holder. Fenrir was the son of Loki and Gulveig-Holder. Loki is a giant not a God, so not one drop of divine blood flows in Skoll's veins. The sun and the moon are not divine in Scandinavian/Teutonic mythology.

The second error is an invention of Stephen Hawking "They used to scream and growl to scare him away and surely enough, in their minds, it worked because the sun "returned". Now we know their raucousness had nothing to do with it. :roll:"- paraphrase by Summerland.

Since the "vikings" believed the sun and moon were safe until Ragnarok they would not have behaved in this fashion.
"There is only one God and his name is Death.
And there is only one thing we say to death "not today"
- Syrio Forel

User avatar
Summerlander
Posts: 3655
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Where are our Dreams?

Postby Summerlander » 09 Feb 2012 14:33

It's funny Snaggle mentions that Loki is not a god when it is clearly stated here, as one of the first things, that he is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki

Anyway, whatever the the truth about how Loki or skoll are seen, it is just myth. The details of Norse mythology don't even come into question when we are dealing with the subject of dreams here. Stephen Hawking's apparent "invention" is still a valid anagram for the ignorance that people have expressed throughout the ages when it comes to explaining the nature of reality. :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 548
Joined: 07 Aug 2011 19:47
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Where are our Dreams?

Postby Ryan » 09 Feb 2012 18:17

torakrubik wrote:I am of the belief that the dreamworld exists in another dimension. However i'm not certain of how we access it.

I'm not sure if you would call it another dimension (I'm not sure if "dimension" and "reality" can be used interchangeably, but meh... LoL), but you access it by shutting off your connection to this physical reality. You do that by removing all sensory input that your physical body receives, effecting putting you into a kind of "void" state where you're connected to nowhere... this allows you freedom of receiving new sensory input from "somewhere else", which you can usually do simply by asking while in this "void" state. :)
For more information, please visit my website
http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/
Or join my forums!
http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/forums/

User avatar
Peter
Posts: 1951
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: Where are our Dreams?

Postby Peter » 10 Feb 2012 10:40

Ryan - thats as clear as mud and just how it works as well :lol:
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

User avatar
jet199
Posts: 14
Joined: 01 Feb 2012 15:03

Re: Where are our Dreams?

Postby jet199 » 10 Feb 2012 11:10

I am going to start a thread in the off topic section on Norse mythology as it does interest me but it is off topic.

As for other realities, if only.
"The real question is not whether there is life after death. The real question is whether you are alive before death" - Osho


Return to “General Lucid Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest