Does the Soul Exist?

For all other chat which isn't directly related to lucid dreaming and the world of sleep and dreams.

Is there a soul?

Humans have souls, but animals and other living things do not
1
6%
Both animals and humans have souls
6
38%
The soul does not exist
6
38%
Other
3
19%
 
Total votes: 16

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deschainXIX
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby deschainXIX » 26 Nov 2014 20:21

Whenever people invoke the rite of thermodynamics, they always forget the second law: energy is never destroyed but only transformed, yes--but with each subsequent transformation of energy, there is an increase in entropy. If consciousness was somehow some form of reincarnate, transformed energy, it would only spiral into dissipated oblivion. Not to mention the idea doesn't really follow in the first place.

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Well said.

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 26 Nov 2014 21:35

It surely doesn't and the previous concessions that a soul might be found were only hypothetically granted by me for the sake of argument. But, like you, absolutely, I find it inconceivable. People often dream that "energies" will solve the problem as though they somehow constitute some conscious or life-giving ectoplasm and the buck stops there. They imagine such substance or force to be the very entity that is aware, the one with intentions, the controller, the meaner. The self. But this is simply false. The self is nothing but an illusion begotten by a cerebral computer capable of producing language and tell stories to itself. The self is merely a centre of narrative illusion analogous to the centre of gravity of celestial bodies in space. It's not there! :-D

Sure, everything is energy, actually, even matter. This one is just condensed energy. But this energy can beget different states depending on structure, motion, and complexity. Oh, plus how it interacts with the rest of the surrounding energy world. Because of this, it can be in conscious and unconscious states. Clearly, if arranged in a particular way, a unit of it (in the form of a complex organism) can become self-aware. This is what we are trying to figure out, and, ironically, the answer is right inside our heads. We are it!! B-)

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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nesgirl
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby nesgirl » 26 Nov 2014 22:54

I am not exactly a heartless negative in the community like it says in the song. Just because I avoid others doesn't mean I don't do things every now and then, I am usually just very secretive about it.
I have negative mood swings, and once I am in one of my negative mood swings, I am not about to change my mind on how I view things until that negative swing ends, and as my mood swings are usually random, I don't know usually what type of mood I'll be in next. And the type of negative mood is random as well.

Also most things discovered about science these days simply depress me, and make me mostly hate how our universe works and hate my life the more I learn about it. All I see is negativity.
I can't see why science and technology just can't teach every species to asexually re-populate the earth through cloning and asexual reproduction. I mean us aromantic asexual people would really appreciate having science on our side for once like they do for some of the reptiles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWfgpHKP0_4 Actually it would be interesting if females evolved to be asexual like those lizards. Oh and let's not forget the video game characters who asexually reproduce all the time, Yoshi, Bowser (Bowser Jr was asexually reproduced despite the rumors), the Koopas, and the shemale Birdo.
Or why they can't teach animals like us to stop hurting and killing their own kind nearly all the time (happens way more often than you think).
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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R99
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby R99 » 27 Nov 2014 10:00

deschainXIX wrote:Whenever people invoke the rite of thermodynamics, they always forget the second law: energy is never destroyed but only transformed, yes--but with each subsequent transformation of energy, there is an increase in entropy. If consciousness was somehow some form of reincarnate, transformed energy, it would only spiral into dissipated oblivion. Not to mention the idea doesn't really follow in the first place.

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“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration...." Nikola Tesla.
I see the Truth now.

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 27 Nov 2014 12:15

And Nikola Tesla was right. But he was obviously talking about things that exist in the physical universe, the only things - I would contend as a physicalist - that exist. Every other notion thought to be of a metaphysical nature is illusory. I say this, not as a doctrine, but as someone who, according to the evidence, stands on firm ground. I speak according to everything observable in a universe that contains matter and its interactions according to the natural laws of nature.

If physicalism is false, if physical reality isn't all there is objectively, and someone has significant substance potent enough to overthrow what appears to be a supreme perspective, I will happily go through a paradigm shift and humbly stand corrected.

But a theory that intends to destroy materialism will at first seem counterintuitive and its exponent should expect me to resist it with strong scepticism. And I would urge, like Popper, for it to be submitted to the process of falsificationism.

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Last edited by Summerlander on 28 Nov 2014 01:47, edited 1 time in total.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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R99
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby R99 » 27 Nov 2014 14:02

nesgirl wrote:I am not exactly a heartless negative in the community like it says in the song. Just because I avoid others doesn't mean I don't do things every now and then, I am usually just very secretive about it.
I have negative mood swings, and once I am in one of my negative mood swings, I am not about to change my mind on how I view things until that negative swing ends, and as my mood swings are usually random, I don't know usually what type of mood I'll be in next. And the type of negative mood is random as well.

Also most things discovered about science these days simply depress me, and make me mostly hate how our universe works and hate my life the more I learn about it. All I see is negativity.
I can't see why science and technology just can't teach every species to asexually re-populate the earth through cloning and asexual reproduction. I mean us aromantic asexual people would really appreciate having science on our side for once like they do for some of the reptiles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWfgpHKP0_4 Actually it would be interesting if females evolved to be asexual like those lizards. Oh and let's not forget the video game characters who asexually reproduce all the time, Yoshi, Bowser (Bowser Jr was asexually reproduced despite the rumors), the Koopas, and the shemale Birdo.
Or why they can't teach animals like us to stop hurting and killing their own kind nearly all the time (happens way more often than you think).



"One man's tool is another man's weapon." it is true nesgirl. there is still hope.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

did u tried meditation? i heard this helps to calm our mind from useless monologue. some times too much thinking is not good for you.

Human experimenting are prohibited. 8-)
of cause, humans can be taught to stop hurting each other. if they have right amount of knowledge to do so. our school or collage only teaching children to make money when they grow up, nothing more there is to know in a school nowadays. We force them to think that way.

instead y not teach them how to think. not to teach just to make money. and ofcoz we need money to live , (well... only humans) make a change from ur home, rest of the world follows.
I see the Truth now.

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nesgirl
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby nesgirl » 01 Dec 2014 04:33

R99 wrote:

"One man's tool is another man's weapon." it is true nesgirl. there is still hope.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

That worries me even more if someone can use some else's tool to inflict mass homicide. It is possible for others to fight back. If you learn self defense, you can protect others and yourself without the use of a weapon, and it helps especially in a very negative world where the policy is protect yourself and others or die.

did u tried meditation? i heard this helps to calm our mind from useless monologue. some times too much thinking is not good for you.

I think all the time. Whether I am Lucid Dreaming, zoning out, or in real life. That is how I work as a designer. Even when I meditate, I imagine myself in a blank room. However, I have to meditate somewhere soundproof and without too much scent or movement in the room, or I get distracted. Because I have trained my 3 very sensitive senses hearing, smell, and touch to tell what is in the room, and what is going on, I can essentially tell if something is amiss in the room, and will get startled out of position. The only time I am 100% relaxed when meditating is when I end up in a WILD, although I am not getting into that.
And pessimism is actually my negative half or in other words, my Tiger side. I have a Pussycat half, although it is NOT optimism. If I am ever in my pussycat half (I really hate when I end up in my pussycat half), then I end up something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NPc08-BWvg and it is NOT something to laugh at when it happens. Because when I get into my supposed pussycat half, I cannot control my hyper mood swing, and while having the adrenaline overload, I may get into daredevil mode and play the devil's advocate or do daredevil acts. Also higher levels I can get terrible insomnia, and the more days I have insomnia and the swing, the more it affects me (I really don't want to get into how terrible the side effects can get).

Human experimenting are prohibited. 8-)
of cause, humans can be taught to stop hurting each other. if they have right amount of knowledge to do so. our school or collage only teaching children to make money when they grow up, nothing more there is to know in a school nowadays. We force them to think that way.

That is correct. What do they do for the bullying? Absolutely nothing. Most of the time, people learn from the bullying how to treat others in society. The bullies learn to become abusers. And the victims learn to hate life and become pessimists. It is even said mental disorders, agoraphobia, and even aromance and asexuality develop because of bullying. (this is how I learned to become a pessimist is through physical and verbal bullying)

instead y not teach them how to think. not to teach just to make money. and ofcoz we need money to live , (well... only humans) make a change from ur home, rest of the world follows.

Because unfortunately, that won't get them to learn. Bullying will always happen, it happens in the animal kingdom nearly all the time. And if I recall, the law of nature does say "Survival of the fittest." And unfortunately, it seems to be that way in our society as well. Our society will frequently reject the handicap or the lower of our species, just like they do in the wild. Or they will even kill them. ANY belief anyone has is just another excuse to bully our species to make them look tougher. Depression also slowly kills the resistance of a person, cutting the lifespan, making this survival of the fittest very true.

You are right about that though, all our species cares about is power (money), and survival, and they will bully anyone to do it. Then there's the whole romance thing which is a BIG waste since 75% of them end in failure and ends up with everyone hating each other. This is why I don't believe in partnerships, and why I think being friends with the cats and dogs is a better alternate.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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R99
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby R99 » 01 Dec 2014 07:51

nesgirl wrote:That worries me even more if someone can use some else's tool to inflict mass homicide. It is possible for others to fight back. If you learn self defense, you can protect others and yourself without the use of a weapon, and it helps especially in a very negative world where the policy is protect yourself and others or die.


u r right, but its the negative side of the world. wicked men always thinks in negative way. like turning a tool in to a weapon. but when the tool in its rightful place it wont do any damage. dont think hard on that. its the way of life. (of humans ofcoz). think it in this way, to create energy we need a negative and positive side. balance is a must.

nesgirl wrote:I think all the time. Whether I am Lucid Dreaming, zoning out, or in real life. That is how I work as a designer. Even when I meditate, I imagine myself in a blank room. However, I have to meditate somewhere soundproof and without too much scent or movement in the room, or I get distracted. Because I have trained my 3 very sensitive senses hearing, smell, and touch to tell what is in the room, and what is going on, I can essentially tell if something is amiss in the room, and will get startled out of position. The only time I am 100% relaxed when meditating is when I end up in a WILD, although I am not getting into that.


i wish i could do that, if u trained ur senses to this level, y not ur mind. am sure u can do it to ur mind too. if u could manage to perfect it , most of ur problem will go away.

nesgirl wrote:then I end up something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NPc08-BWvg and it is NOT something to laugh at when it happens


very funny video. but in real life. thats going to be a problem.

nesgirl wrote:That is correct. What do they do for the bullying? Absolutely nothing. Most of the time, people learn from the bullying how to treat others in society. The bullies learn to become abusers. And the victims learn to hate life and become pessimists. It is even said mental disorders, agoraphobia, and even aromance and asexuality develop because of bullying. (this is how I learned to become a pessimist is through physical and verbal bullying)


u know y people tend too bully other people?, bcoz they got bullied too... but they r too week to see through it, so they tend to think bulling other people make them feel better. the problem starts within the family, lack of good guidance and care lead to this behavior. i see u r one of the victim, so sorry to hear it. try to over come it seeing through every thing. there is always a reason to everything happening in this world, instead of thinking its not going to change, do what u can do to change it.... i know its easy to say, but its worth a shot.


nesgirl wrote:Because unfortunately, that won't get them to learn. Bullying will always happen, it happens in the animal kingdom nearly all the time. And if I recall, the law of nature does say "Survival of the fittest." And unfortunately, it seems to be that way in our society as well. Our society will frequently reject the handicap or the lower of our species, just like they do in the wild. Or they will even kill them. ANY belief anyone has is just another excuse to bully our species to make them look tougher. Depression also slowly kills the resistance of a person, cutting the lifespan, making this survival of the fittest very true.


True, survival of the fittest is the way of nature. but think it in this way. hard time make us strong. if everyone lives an easy life that will make them weak. this is y life throws us in difficult time. we need to push on to stay alive.

in this world there r lots of suicides. i know everyone knows y. bcoz they r too weak to fight back in life, they got an easy life till then. but wen the life throw u through some tough time to grow up, they collapse. instead of thinking "it is the end", try to think "this makes us strong". if u take this way through every negative situation, u will succeed to survive. To me this is what meant by "Survival of the fittest."
I see the Truth now.

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R99
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby R99 » 01 Dec 2014 08:47

Summerlander wrote:And Nikola Tesla was right. But he was obviously talking about things that exist in the physical universe, the only things - I would contend as a physicalist - that exist. Every other notion thought to be of a metaphysical nature is illusory. I say this, not as a doctrine, but as someone who, according to the evidence, stands on firm ground. I speak according to everything observable in a universe that contains matter and its interactions according to the natural laws of nature.

If physicalism is false, if physical reality isn't all there is objectively, and someone has significant substance potent enough to overthrow what appears to be a supreme perspective, I will happily go through a paradigm shift and humbly stand corrected.

But a theory that intends to destroy materialism will at first seem counterintuitive and its exponent should expect me to resist it with strong scepticism. And I would urge, like Popper, for it to be submitted to the process of falsificationism.

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I get it summer, Nikola Tesla is ofcoz talking about physical reality. but i am talking about energy here.it is connected to physics. i stated b4, in my view soul is a form of energy. i voted in "Both animals and humans have souls" is becoz of this reason. i dont believe in afterlife but it doesnt mean am refusing after death, there is nothing left. may be our energy turns in to some other forms of energy that cant be detected by our current science (yet, u cant predict wen some smart people discover something that...truly out of this world.) we cant see magnetic field, the only way to see it through other objects, a medium like magnet sand or iron sand. but its there. just like this we cant see this energy (am saying it again "YET") but it doesnt mean its not there. there is gotta be a different kind of energy that makes a living, thinking creature like us and other life forms. and I am searching for it till the end of my life. :)
I see the Truth now.

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deschainXIX
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby deschainXIX » 01 Dec 2014 22:22

R99 wrote:
nesgirl wrote:That worries me even more if someone can use some else's tool to inflict mass homicide. It is possible for others to fight back. If you learn self defense, you can protect others and yourself without the use of a weapon, and it helps especially in a very negative world where the policy is protect yourself and others or die.


u r right, but its the negative side of the world. wicked men always thinks in negative way. like turning a tool in to a weapon. but when the tool in its rightful place it wont do any damage. dont think hard on that. its the way of life. (of humans ofcoz). think it in this way, to create energy we need a negative and positive side. balance is a must.

nesgirl wrote:I think all the time. Whether I am Lucid Dreaming, zoning out, or in real life. That is how I work as a designer. Even when I meditate, I imagine myself in a blank room. However, I have to meditate somewhere soundproof and without too much scent or movement in the room, or I get distracted. Because I have trained my 3 very sensitive senses hearing, smell, and touch to tell what is in the room, and what is going on, I can essentially tell if something is amiss in the room, and will get startled out of position. The only time I am 100% relaxed when meditating is when I end up in a WILD, although I am not getting into that.


i wish i could do that, if u trained ur senses to this level, y not ur mind. am sure u can do it to ur mind too. if u could manage to perfect it , most of ur problem will go away.

nesgirl wrote:then I end up something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NPc08-BWvg and it is NOT something to laugh at when it happens


very funny video. but in real life. thats going to be a problem.

nesgirl wrote:That is correct. What do they do for the bullying? Absolutely nothing. Most of the time, people learn from the bullying how to treat others in society. The bullies learn to become abusers. And the victims learn to hate life and become pessimists. It is even said mental disorders, agoraphobia, and even aromance and asexuality develop because of bullying. (this is how I learned to become a pessimist is through physical and verbal bullying)


u know y people tend too bully other people?, bcoz they got bullied too... but they r too week to see through it, so they tend to think bulling other people make them feel better. the problem starts within the family, lack of good guidance and care lead to this behavior. i see u r one of the victim, so sorry to hear it. try to over come it seeing through every thing. there is always a reason to everything happening in this world, instead of thinking its not going to change, do what u can do to change it.... i know its easy to say, but its worth a shot.


nesgirl wrote:Because unfortunately, that won't get them to learn. Bullying will always happen, it happens in the animal kingdom nearly all the time. And if I recall, the law of nature does say "Survival of the fittest." And unfortunately, it seems to be that way in our society as well. Our society will frequently reject the handicap or the lower of our species, just like they do in the wild. Or they will even kill them. ANY belief anyone has is just another excuse to bully our species to make them look tougher. Depression also slowly kills the resistance of a person, cutting the lifespan, making this survival of the fittest very true.


True, survival of the fittest is the way of nature. but think it in this way. hard time make us strong. if everyone lives an easy life that will make them weak. this is y life throws us in difficult time. we need to push on to stay alive.

in this world there r lots of suicides. i know everyone knows y. bcoz they r too weak to fight back in life, they got an easy life till then. but wen the life throw u through some tough time to grow up, they collapse. instead of thinking "it is the end", try to think "this makes us strong". if u take this way through every negative situation, u will succeed to survive. To me this is what meant by "Survival of the fittest."


On April 3, 1982, my mother’s cousin, Stephanie Roper, a beautiful, young, and talented artist (whose artwork was later put up in a museum), was driving home from an evening spent with her college friends. She had dropped everyone off at their houses and was driving home herself when her car broke down on an empty, dark road. Eventually two men came along, asking her if she needed help.

She accepted. Well these two dirty, uneducated men were the last human beings she ever saw. Of course.

They abducted her at gunpoint, taking her to a small, half-rotten shack in the middle of the woods where, for the next two weeks, they brutally and constantly tortured, raped, and sodomized her. They ripped out all of her teeth and cut off her breasts, cauterizing the wounds with a clothes iron. One accidentally called the other by his first name, and so, becoming afraid of identification, they decided to kill her. She tried several times to escape, and upon her final attempt, when they found her in the woods, they accidentally split her skull open with a logging chain. And as she lay twitching on the ground, blood and brain pumping out of a fissure in her helmet of calcium, they decided she was too damaged, and they simply shot her to death where she lay squirming in the leaves and mud.

They dragged her back to the hut and, in an attempt to prevent identification, they cut off her hands and feet then set her on fire.

Well … about a week or two later the police dragged whatever was left of her out of the swamp. A deacon (whose piety luckily was not so idiotic as to conform to the Catholic belief that all confessions should stay in the booth and beyond the reach of law-enforcement ears) had listened to the confession of the younger of the two men, who had been driven mad by the guilt and horror at what he had done. The deacon, wisely putting humanity before doctrine, tipped off the police, and they arrested the younger man who subsequently turned in his “partner.”

This narrative may seem familiar to you, or at least the basic story-arc. That’s because these things (and some things even worse and more unjust than Stephanie Roper) happen every day. Every. Day. Are we not always hearing news stories about needless, mindless, pointless, horrors? The misery this girl must have gone through. Think of all she endured. Think of it.

Now--you make the outrageous claim that “everything happens for a reason.” I find that frankly fascinating and indeed psychologically revealing. Perhaps while you were reading Stephanie’s story, your blood pressure began to rise. I know that mine certainly rose while writing about it. There is something to be discerned from the fact that, at the moment, I want nothing more than to kill those two men (who were spared death-row and are presently serving two lifetimes each in prison). Injustice and simple wrong-ness are the most difficult human emotions to grapple with. They consume us to the point of utter insanity and torment and intellectual misery. We like things to make sense. We simply do. Our minds are mechanisms that love order and systematic, rightful processes. When something like this happens, we are not able to comprehend it. The world just doesn’t seem to make any sense. It’s a cruel, mindless, anti-magnanimous machine whose murderous cogs we are trapped within like rats in a trap. Some people like to comfort themselves by saying things like, “Everything happens for a reason.”

So, R99, why exactly did Stephanie have to suffer so much before meeting her brief and violent end? Was it so that she could be “made stronger and better-equipped to endure the hardships of life?” Was it so that the experience could make her a better person? Or maybe God, in his kindness and benevolence, was trying to teach her a lesson or get her attention and things simply got a little out of hand? I don’t think any of those things are the case, and you probably don’t either. What happened did not better anyone--not Stephanie, not her parents, not her family, not even the monsters who perpetrated the crime. It was the very definition of an atrocity--pure and simple and evil.

The best way we can overcome the world and remain happy is not to practice ignorant and offensive philosophies but to instead practice contentment and acceptance. The universe is beyond our control. It’s a wild animal that is too powerful and complicated to be subdued or comprehended by men.
“We either learn to accept or we end up writing letters home with crayons.” --Stephen King

I would, however, like to reaffirm the crucial difference between mental disorder and realism (often misinterpreted as pessimism). I think in nesgirl’s case, she is plagued by mental disorder. Reasoning with her and giving her such a feel-good philosophy as “everything happens for a reason, to make us stronger” will not help her or get anyone anywhere. She needs psychiatric treatment, just as a man with a broken leg needs a physician.
Well said.


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