False Awakening or OBE?

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DesertExplorer
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby DesertExplorer » 26 Dec 2014 01:38

I do agree with that the WILDs are just dreams. And only you know your dreams, so of course you have the right to call them what you feel they are.

Now, you may call me narrow-minded but I will dare to say that this experiment cannot actually happen. In your occasion, just because they are dreams as you say. But in general (for those who meditate I mean) not because there are not the means (which I doubt there are any) for us to do it, but because I) AP doesn't belong in physical and II) the time in here might be a lot different than the time in there (astral plane as some call it). So, no physical means could ever prove anything like that and you might be right to doubt it, but as it can be experienced through you and only, you could try and see for yourself the truth.

I tell that to myself too, but I have a great desire to master the LD world first as it is far more creative (it's fun! :) ) and it could be something like a prologue for me before trying meditation techniques, that seem to open the gates for something far more serious.
Life is hard. Then you die. Then they throw dirt in your face. Then the worms eat you. Be grateful it happens in that order.

~David Gerrold

Enra Traz
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby Enra Traz » 26 Dec 2014 03:52

I share nesgirl's sentiments on this one. I believe what people experience when they think they are in the astral projection state is nothing but a dream, i.e. an illusion unconsciously brought forth by the mind.

Since people who believe they are astral projecting are aware that they are physically in repose but do not think they are dreaming, we cannot really say that they are lucid dreaming - as this means to be aware that one is dreaming while it's happening.

What we can say is that this so-called astral projection is a similar phenomenon begotten by the same hybrid phase state of the brain that gives rise to lucid dreaming. Like in lucid dreams, the sleeper who believes he's astral projecting possesses an unusually high degree of consciousness, as though he were awake in a dream world (and this is exactly how it feels). Thus, it seems to me that the difference between the astral plane and the lucid dream world lies in belief and interpretation.

I find it fascinating how easily New Age adherents can dismiss the potential for dreams to emulate anything imaginable - including one's idea of a spirit realm inhabited by discarnate beings.

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nesgirl
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby nesgirl » 26 Dec 2014 05:22

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Last edited by nesgirl on 21 May 2015 02:16, edited 1 time in total.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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Summerlander
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby Summerlander » 26 Dec 2014 13:42

Cool link! And that is exactly what astral projectors are doing without realising it. They are unconsciously exercising escapism. They reject the notion that the astral plane is just a dream because, to them, it seems to obliterate the magic, the beauty, it kills their fantasy.

Evidence weighs heavily in favour of these experiences being subjective worlds, illusions forged by a creative human mind. I am yet to discover what makes New Age adherents so sure that what they experience in the aforesaid phase state is an objective spiritual plane of existence.

What makes them differentiate between a dream simulation of the astral plane and a hypothetically real visit to said metaphysical realm? What is the one element that the astral plane has that a dream simulation of it does not? I think Desert Explorer will not be able to mention one and substantiate it with enough gravitas. I have had many replies to my challenge and so far every single one of them has been refuted.

The fact is: anything can happen in the dreamland that originates in our heads. The dreaming mind has the potential to make anything imaginary appear real, thereby creating a very convincing illusion so powerful that sometimes the dreaming witness is gulled by the impact.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

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DesertExplorer
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby DesertExplorer » 26 Dec 2014 17:25

Who says that I want to counter myself to what you are all saying? There is no evidence in what I say that exists and no in what you claim.

And, what you all claim seems or better "feels" more likely the truth. I have not landed in any "field" between this opposition that arose. Because, I clearly don't want to fall into a world of nightmare created by my mind.

Was it for you, was it me?
Did I watch too much TV?.. :lol:

Last night I read Rebecca's opinion on the matter and may I say the words convinced me not until the very last moment I finished reading. Not because of logic (everyone has one at least), but because I want it that way, too. For it feels that way, eventually.. Does what it feels right is the truth? I for the first time hope so.
Life is hard. Then you die. Then they throw dirt in your face. Then the worms eat you. Be grateful it happens in that order.

~David Gerrold

Enra Traz
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby Enra Traz » 26 Dec 2014 18:03

So you'd say that you're agnostic about this subject whilst admitting to wishful thinking? Am I correct in saying that you don't necessarily believe in astral projection but you do believe in its belief as it gives people some sort of hope?

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DesertExplorer
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby DesertExplorer » 26 Dec 2014 18:21

Some sort of hope about what? Do you mean like life after death? If, so the answer is yes. I couldn't violate the beliefs of anyone by committing in anything possible fact like it's the only.
Life is hard. Then you die. Then they throw dirt in your face. Then the worms eat you. Be grateful it happens in that order.

~David Gerrold

Enra Traz
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby Enra Traz » 26 Dec 2014 21:08

So you believe in believing in the afterlife even if it's not true because at least it comforts people, I take it. But, do you believe in life after death? On a scale of one to ten, one being absolute disbelief, five being uncertainty on a fifty-fifty basis, and ten knowing that consciousness survives physical death, where exactly do you stand and why? I'm curious about people's take on this. If you can, mention what you find compelling, whether it's for or against the afterlife. Really introspect and tell us where you really are as candidly as you can.

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DesertExplorer
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby DesertExplorer » 26 Dec 2014 22:27

No. Don't take it, cause, I didn't say it. Read again what I actually said.

About what you ask me, I can tell about believing in that the conciousness remains untouched after death. There is no really too much to say as I have not experienced it, I am not convinced about what I've read and there is no possible way for me to see it through.

What about you?
Life is hard. Then you die. Then they throw dirt in your face. Then the worms eat you. Be grateful it happens in that order.

~David Gerrold

Enra Traz
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby Enra Traz » 27 Dec 2014 00:10

Well, I revised your previous posts and I can tell you that several people hallucinating a hag or a furry demon in sleep paralysis is not proof of the objective existence of supernatural beings. Folkloric tales spread like wild fire down the generations and so do memes and genes. Scientists have stimulated brains with electric shocks and needles, causing all manner of memories, psychosomatic perceptions and hallucinations (tactile, olfactory, visual, auditory). Percepts and the so-called qualia, as evidence strongly suggests, are generated by the brain.

And that's not all. There are hundreds of examples of brain ills and deficits which attack different parts of the brain, and, when we look at all these different types of damage and malfunction as a whole, we can tell that all aspects of the mind are excisable based on the inner activity or inactivity of cerebral matter. There are peculiar conditions where people fail to recognise faces, cannot recall the names of objects, become blind, lose the power of speech or fail to recognise language, there relatives suddenly become strangers, or you forget who you are. The living can experience agnosias, amnesias, personality disorders and occasionally become unconscious. Heck, the fact that we can't even think straight or hardly anything when we are having sex and about to climax says something about the user illusion that is the self and the nature of thoughts themselves.

So you ask me what my take is. If the brain is completely destroyed, given the evidence, it is more likely than not that nothing survives. The evidentiary arrows point to the conclusion that death is really final. Death means death. So far they have discovered the Higgs boson at the Large Hadron Collider but the postulated ghost in the machine remains elusive. The ectoplasmic self is nowhere to be seen! The soul that they say so grossly controls physical bodies, so blatanly stirs the physical realm, remains undetected.

Is there an afterlife where you see and recognise your relatives at thd end of a bright tunnel? Is there a world of coherent perception when your functional physical brain is no more? I don't think so. The hypothetical afterlife is highly unlikely and starts to look like a tenuous and contradictory proposition when we look at the evidence.

Thus, I do not believe in the afterlife. We cease to exist at death. We return to the nonexistence we were in prior to being born. And if there is an afterlife I will be very surprised and gutted. Gutted because of the thought of eternal consciousness is dreadful. Imagine thinking the same thoughts an infinite number of times, and doing everything you can think of an infinite number of times. Novelty would soon die, your existence would become tedious, and you would lose your mind to the point of begging for an end.

So, at the same time, I am glad that the evidence weighs in favour of us being mortal. Thanks for asking and you are welcome! ;-)

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