nesgirl and Summerlander

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Enra Traz
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby Enra Traz » 05 Jan 2015 21:36

My husband is far from being cruel towards animals. We looked after a dog for a friend once and the animal ate some cakes I had made when we weren't looking. I was very cross and was going to tell this dog off. But my husband reminded me that the dog would not make the association between punishment and the past misdeed unless you catch it in the act. So we let the animal go.

Acknowledging that animals are inferior can make one be more compassionate towards them. More understanding. Imagining that the animal has a human mind and is capable of understanding what we understand will only lead to treating them unfairly.

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buildit
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby buildit » 05 Jan 2015 21:57

Enra Traz wrote:My husband is far from being cruel towards animals. We looked after a dog for a friend once and the animal ate some cakes I had made when we weren't looking. I was very cross and was going to tell this dog off. But my husband reminded me that the dog would not make the association between punishment and the past misdeed unless you catch it in the act. So we let the animal go.


:shock: Please describe this humanity you poses further for us. I find your description to be like watching Jerry Springer. :roll:

How acknowledging that animals are inferior to people is the same as not caring for them, or equivalent to incurring cruelty on them, I don't know.

Because every time we placed our suffering, our well being or our intelligence ahead of another species in human history it has resulted in the discrimination, slaughter and hate of that species. Human history is full of examples of our benevolence towards other species. So you will have to forgive the misconception that when a person with the social attitude of an ambulance chasing lawyer, like you, discloses the philosophy that animals are inferior to humans. Well, the response speaks for itself as to how your particular brand of humanity is viewed.
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HAGART
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby HAGART » 05 Jan 2015 22:39

I think Summerlander is simply saying inferior INTELLIGENCE. Not an inferior being.

Understanding that actually does make one more compassionate towards animals and we treat them like our children for they too have an inferior intelligence. Did I just call babies stupid? Yes. :lol:

And as for the cake-eating incident, I get angry at people who don't understand how dogs perceive the world and think they understand human language and if we tell them, "Remember that cake you ate an hour ago? Well it was BAD!"

In the dog's view, they have no idea why you are angry and you can traumatize them. What I use to do is get my dog, and return to the scene of the crime. Then you point, and let him know exactly what it is you are upset about. Dog's may be inferior in intelligence to us, and apes, but they certainly have a very high emotional intelligence (towards us humans anyway) and can read us way better than any other animal. (Due to years of domestication).

I once saw a documentary. They did an experiment where one person had a puppy distracted while another put a treat under an upside down bowl, and the one beside it was empty. Then they let a puppy go and the other person pointed to where the treat was. The puppy saw the hand, knew instinctively to go there, and found it. (Any dog owner will tell you that dog's sure do focus on our hands a lot and 'read' them as if they are communicating something to them). They did the same with a Chimpanzee. The chimp couldn't care less where you pointed and made it's own decision as if it was stupid or something.
Last edited by HAGART on 05 Jan 2015 23:08, edited 1 time in total.
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buildit
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby buildit » 05 Jan 2015 22:57

HAGART wrote:I once saw a documentary. They did an experiment where one person had a puppy distracted while another put a treat under an upside down bowl, and the one beside it was empty. Then they let a puppy go and the other person pointed to where the treat was. The puppy saw the hand, knew instinctively to go there, and found it. They did the same with a Chimpanzee. The chimp couldn't care less where you pointed and made it's own decision as if it was stupid or something.


Yes, that is referred to as the inference test I believe and is designed to show the ability of animals to infer from another thru actions or facial expressions. They found chimps while having a complex social structure like humans lacked many inference techniques dogs and humans have in common. The big question was is it a trait we have bread into dogs thru thousands of years of cohabitation? I found it more interesting that both chimps and dogs have capacity and intelligence for lying and deceit.

As for the great human "pat on the back" it has not done us any favors thinking ourselves genetically or emotionally superior to other species or even to each other. After all, slave owners reasoned their ownership was by right of superior IQ and station. So the assumption that humans are by nature more emotional than animals simply based on our intelligence is a slippery slope towards the end of the pool where clubbing baby seals, shooting wolves and beating cattle is okay because they don't feel like we do. :roll:
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nesgirl
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby nesgirl » 05 Jan 2015 23:11

Summerlander wrote:How acknowledging that animals are inferior to people is the same as not caring for them, or equivalent to incurring cruelty on them, I don't know.

I said, "Animals are not capable of suffering as much as humans." nesgirl and buildit read, "Animals don't suffer therefore we can be cruel to them." I also recall saying that we should spare them any suffering even if they can never comprehend the extent to which human beings suffer, in their current languageless form.

A child is also inferior to an adult in many ways. By nesgirl's standards I guess we should take pleasure in kicking them and have no compassion or empathy for them.

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Because many people who think animals who are inferior to them do inflict cruelty on them. Why should I believe anyone who thinks animals are inferior is going to treat the animal differently?


As far as the child thing....why not look up child abuse? Happens often, because many adults believe they do have superiority over the child.


I think Summerlander is simply saying inferior INTELLIGENCE. Not an inferior being


No he was saying they were inferior, not inferior intelligence. If it was lower intelligence, that I can agree with. If they had higher intelligence like we had, they would have the ability to discriminate and judge us like our species always does. But because they don't have the intelligence to judge a person because of their differences or bash them, it makes them THAT much easier to get along with. Although they are in fact sensitive to feelings, well at least my cats always are.

As for the great human "pat on the back" it has not done us any favors thinking ourselves genetically or emotionally superior to other species or even to each other. After all, slave owners reasoned their ownership was by right of superior IQ and station. So the assumption that humans are by nature more emotional than animals simply based on our intelligence is a slippery slope towards the end of the pool where clubbing baby seals, shooting wolves and beating cattle is okay because they don't feel like we do. :roll:

Not to mention killing wild animals for their skins, crucifying black cats, or the pioneers who rode the trains and shot the buffalos to near extinction just for the heck of it. We even drove the passenger pigeon and the dodo birds to extinction. Yes I can blame our species for many of the species who are endangered or are nearing extinction.
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Summerlander
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby Summerlander » 06 Jan 2015 00:43

I think there is definitely a difference in brain power amongst humans for sure, for how else does one explain that Hagart understood the context in which I used the word "inferior" and nesgirl and buildit still don't get it? Richard Dawkins was right when he talked about a spectrum where people like Einstein are at one end and Sarah Palins the other... :-D

How else is the word inferior to be interpreted in this case? Yes child abuse and racist cruelty exist bit most humans do not exhibit such behaviours. Fact. Also, the slavery analogy buildit just pulled there is absolute bull. At that time, the wrong people were in power and religion didn't do any favours when it reinforced the belief that black people where just animals or unclean spirits. On top of that, there was economic pressure that persuaded many to be in favour of slavery. But don't forget the abolitionists' success and the fact that the tables have turned. Slavery is now officially considered to be criminal. Buildit's analogy does not work because the notion that white people are superior to black people is simply a myth. It is wrong and there is no evidence for it.

But the fact that animals areinferior to us is quite telling. See? Two different cases. We are not talking about humans of different races. We are talking about humans and animals. But we should be judgemental about our own when making important decisions, eg. who do we want running the country? An educated man with his head in the right place or a psychotic thug with a penchant for narcotics?

There is no evidence that animals are capable of consciously lying either (some species appear to lie to predators but in actual fact it is merely a built-in behavioural proclivity by evolution). This is another misconception by buildit. Dogs following fingers is not evidence of superiority to chimps either. Again, this is instinctual behaviour "copied" down generations of selective breeding and evolution. One could have also erroneously argue that chimps are more independent in making decisions and use this to evidence their superiority.

It is rich of nesgirl to talk about discrimination when she'd rather save a kitten than a human being. Speciesist or what. Not to mention that she believes sexual people are ill and guilt of their urges.

I believe this case is closed. :-)

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nesgirl
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby nesgirl » 06 Jan 2015 03:20

Just because we didn't catch on right away doesn't mean you can call us retarded. At least animals don't call people retard. They are preferable.


It wasn't just black people who had little to no rights, and were beaten. I should know being a FEMALE. Back in the old days because mostly of religion, females were not allowed to do much of anything and had little to no rights. Often in fact, guys would select and sometimes purchase the females they wanted to marry, and the female didn't get to have any say against the guy's wishes or not. I learned they could marry at a younger age back in those days, usually if they had the money to do so (even if it was frowned upon, female didn't have any rights). The guy then took the female to basically be their house slave, where she would serve on him hand and foot. The guy could beat the female and treat her like dirt if he chose to and she couldn't complain at all about how she felt. Females would have the children. Basically if females were caught participating in just about anything in public because they were meant to be house slaves, they would be thrown in jail or in some countries executed. Also all females had to wear dresses back then. Did you know it took a very long time for females in many countries to win our rights? However many religious guys still think females should still be house slaves, and some places still don't get the hint and pay females less than the guys. I do fight for race as well, but I fight for gender rights as well, especially because it is hard in an area which is high in religion for a female to have equal rights.
See it isn't just race many religions have a problem with. Why not ask what the female's role is within religion? Oh I know, this video says everything that religion feels about females being house slaves right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYV7KWQ-fY4 2:34-3:21 No wonder I have such doubts about a female being elected for president in the USA.

You forget that it wasn't just Black people who were persecuted during that time. Did you know that black cats were also persecuted and burned at the stake (cat racism) and this was also because of religion, because they thought the cats were possessed by evil spirits and brought bad luck. And still to this day, animal racism still exists just as much as people racism. Did you know black cats are still crucified by superstitious religious people every Halloween night, believing them to be possessed by evil spirits? And there is still black cat racism to this day so much that they are rarely adopted by people (the humane society and shelters are full of black cats).
Oh and by the way, my sister adopted a black cat. He adores her 2 children and takes really good care of them. And I pet him all the time whenever I go over to her place. That stupid religious theory that black cats cause bad luck is untrue and is racist towards cats!!


Obama stinks as a president. We need someone better for president. If we seriously got a competent female president running for once I would be thrilled. Although I doubt that would ever happen. Many of the citizens are still sexist, as you may not have realized may not have realized that some of them still think a female's role is still as a house slave (especially with some religions as you saw above). But even with that, I seriously doubt at this point anything can go right with anyone.

I don't just save animals, I just said I am much more likely to befriend them. Why do you think I give my blood twice a month at the blood center? You think I would do it if I didn't care at all about humanity? My blood lacks an antibody in it like I said before. This allows me to give my blood to children and babies. If the need arose, I would save another person if necessary, as I am not heartless. I said I distrusted our species, I never said I hated our species, there is a big difference. I would definitely go out of my way to save a person's life. However, if it were a romantic guy I ended up saving in the process, I would leave him in a hospital to recover and run away really fast.


As far as the other, yes I do believe that. Philanders often end up raping their victims, usually by drugging their drinks or whatever. And often from what I have seen, I don't believe in literal romance. I think it is exactly the same thing as what happens with animals, and doesn't usually really last. If there was some way to rid species of that like with the Whiptail lizard, we might be better off.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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DesertExplorer
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby DesertExplorer » 06 Jan 2015 17:57

That's terrible indeed.. I love women and black cats! :)

I guess we will need a little more time before the medieval style racists will vanish from earth. I hope so at least. :(

I think that even the most currently underdeveloped creatures evolve slowly in time passing, at least. Why not humans? :D
Life is hard. Then you die. Then they throw dirt in your face. Then the worms eat you. Be grateful it happens in that order.

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nesgirl
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby nesgirl » 06 Jan 2015 18:44

I can tell you sexism still exists. First of all, many religions require females to wear dresses and say a female's role is a house slave. Actually that one religion that says the guys get to create universes, females don't get to, although the guys have to be married to a female. The females are just stuck rearing the young and having kids assumed in the kitchen. Also it is tough to get jobs or take classes in that there aren't as many females in for a female, and you don't get paid as much. There is often fierce discrimination with it as well.
Oh and there are fierce sexist jokes as well. One of them that ticks me off that people think is funny is "Get back in the Kitchen." The Batman series is very famous for that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYAwn1-_ISc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeHUQAnzpF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq57dcl7I3A
Racism can also be a problem in several ways, I can agree. And orientation is a problem, because while gays were stoned, I feel like aromantic asexuals were basically forced into it in the old times and raped, which to me is much worse than death. Handicaps also, because either they were persecuted and put to death (which is what I think happened with the salem witch trials), or they were locked into insane asylums, where they were beaten, mocked, and tortured until many just wished they were dead.
Goodbye forever...
I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.

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DesertExplorer
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby DesertExplorer » 06 Jan 2015 20:26

nesgirl wrote:I can tell you sexism still exists. First of all, many religions require females to wear dresses and say a female's role is a house slave. Actually that one religion that says the guys get to create universes, females don't get to, although the guys have to be married to a female. The females are just stuck rearing the young and having kids assumed in the kitchen. Also it is tough to get jobs or take classes in that there aren't as many females in for a female, and you don't get paid as much. There is often fierce discrimination with it as well.
Oh and there are fierce sexist jokes as well. One of them that ticks me off that people think is funny is "Get back in the Kitchen." The Batman series is very famous for that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYAwn1-_ISc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeHUQAnzpF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq57dcl7I3A
Racism can also be a problem in several ways, I can agree. And orientation is a problem, because while gays were stoned, I feel like aromantic asexuals were basically forced into it in the old times and raped, which to me is much worse than death. Handicaps also, because either they were persecuted and put to death (which is what I think happened with the salem witch trials), or they were locked into insane asylums, where they were beaten, mocked, and tortured until many just wished they were dead.


Oh, now.. I feel depressed again reading that. :((

I bet you have seen "The Crucible"? If not, I suggest you to do. It's a great movie! The one with Daniel Day Lewis.
Life is hard. Then you die. Then they throw dirt in your face. Then the worms eat you. Be grateful it happens in that order.

~David Gerrold


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