My unique list of lucid / sleep paralysis phenomena

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astrovineyard
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Re: My unique list of lucid / sleep paralysis phenomena

Postby astrovineyard » 02 Feb 2015 15:43

Not SP? I thought hypnagogia/hypnopompia were the dreams that went ALONG with SP. Or is it a fine line between calling something a dream vs. a hallucination. If the difference is one continues even though you think you are awake (lucid) and is thus more strange and vivid, then fine.

The "hand" I felt on me I was trying to describe as a very mild and benign version of the invisible force that pinned me down (mostly at the chest or back, depending on sleeping position), and since I was on my side, neither a chest or back pressure would "pin" me "down" since the direction of gravitational pinning would occur at that region from my left shoulder, which is exactly where I felt the source of pressure applied that I interpreted as the unseen hand of my father who I thought had just opened my bedroom door to wake me up.

Perhaps you thought simply feeling that is not enough to call it SP. While there was no terror nor panic to it, and thus no need to try to move or struggle, I did not encounter the classic muscle paralysis - UNTIL I attempted to tell "him" that I was awake. It was like my breath was not there and my vocal chords did not respond to my intention to speak. It has been several years so I might be forgetting some details. I might have tried to turn while I attempted to speak and not been able to. Whatever the result I probably started to freak out which is why a second or two later I put more energy into it and broke out of it.

Snaggle
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Re: My unique list of lucid / sleep paralysis phenomena

Postby Snaggle » 03 Feb 2015 12:55

astrovineyard wrote:Not SP? I thought hypnagogia/hypnopompia were the dreams that went ALONG with SP. Or is it a fine line between calling something a dream vs. a hallucination. If the difference is one continues even though you think you are awake (lucid) and is thus more strange and vivid, then fine.

The "hand" I felt on me I was trying to describe as a very mild and benign version of the invisible force that pinned me down (mostly at the chest or back, depending on sleeping position), and since I was on my side, neither a chest or back pressure would "pin" me "down" since the direction of gravitational pinning would occur at that region from my left shoulder, which is exactly where I felt the source of pressure applied that I interpreted as the unseen hand of my father who I thought had just opened my bedroom door to wake me up.

Perhaps you thought simply feeling that is not enough to call it SP. While there was no terror nor panic to it, and thus no need to try to move or struggle, I did not encounter the classic muscle paralysis - UNTIL I attempted to tell "him" that I was awake. It was like my breath was not there and my vocal chords did not respond to my intention to speak. It has been several years so I might be forgetting some details. I might have tried to turn while I attempted to speak and not been able to. Whatever the result I probably started to freak out which is why a second or two later I put more energy into it and broke out of it.


Your first point is completely wrong. Hypnagogia is just the first stage of dreaming. Normal sleep according to sleep research goes: hypnagogia to NonREM dreams; to deep dreamless Delta wave sleep; then to REM sleep. It's also true in my experience of doing WILDS with the skipping of Delta sleep. REM Muscle Atonia kicks in normally right after Delta sleep and SP is either a sleep state inspired by RMA (my opinion agrees with this) or actually the SP experiencers are awake and hallucinating (really unlikely). I've been in real waking REM muscle atonia and there's neither any "hallucinations" or muscle paralysis - the whole experience is soothing if one is really awake.

One can be aware of one's real body while asleep and dreaming. In the experience I related of a second right hand I had clearly fallen asleep and dreamed that "astral hand", even though I had not lost consciousness while falling asleep I became lucid only when I felt that dream hand and really woke myself up. Doing WILDS I'm normally aware of my real body and what is happening in the real world more or less at least until the onset of REM dreams and often even then. One sees hypnagogia almost every time one falls asleep whether or not one is aware of it, e.g. I fell asleep while sitting up with my headphones on completely losing consciousness, as my head fell back the headsets fell off waking me up - I had seen a every beautiful Wildlife Hypnagogic image as I woke up.

I also related here my experiments with hypnagogia where I tried to see through my closed eyes and then while in hypnagogia seeing through them got up and walked around seeing only hypnagogically through closed eyes without bumping into anything and even seeing my cat and opening my eyes to see that he was really there, which he was. I also tried to walk around with normally closed eyes and bumped into both walls and furniture. I was amusing and every interesting that I could use dream eyes to see the real world :D.
"There is only one God and his name is Death.
And there is only one thing we say to death "not today"
- Syrio Forel

astrovineyard
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Re: My unique list of lucid / sleep paralysis phenomena

Postby astrovineyard » 03 Feb 2015 16:44

Is there a redefinition of terms going on here? I thought hypnagogic and hypnopompic refer, respectively, to hallucinations one has upon falling asleep or waking up. The former is more common with narcoleptics (which I am not) because they bypass non-REM (and Delta?) and dive right into REM. Thus I've only experienced the latter (except maybe once) when waking up.

You seem to be using the terms synonymously with dreaming in general, or perhaps lucid dreaming, but obviously one is not always in control of this lucidity. Or, if one realizes it is a dream, still assumes what is happening to be real. Well, isn't thinking that the strange things that really aren't happening ARE happening still... a dream? It seems only the vividness, panic and fear are different, and the other experiences.

I guess the issue is: is the paralysis one feels simply one in which they imagine they can't move in the dream, or an awareness of their actual body's paralysis?

Snaggle
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Re: My unique list of lucid / sleep paralysis phenomena

Postby Snaggle » 04 Feb 2015 11:29

astrovineyard wrote:Is there a redefinition of terms going on here? I thought hypnagogic and hypnopompic refer, respectively, to hallucinations one has upon falling asleep or waking up. The former is more common with narcoleptics (which I am not) because they bypass non-REM (and Delta?) and dive right into REM. Thus I've only experienced the latter (except maybe once) when waking up.

You seem to be using the terms synonymously with dreaming in general, or perhaps lucid dreaming, but obviously one is not always in control of this lucidity. Or, if one realizes it is a dream, still assumes what is happening to be real. Well, isn't thinking that the strange things that really aren't happening ARE happening still... a dream? It seems only the vividness, panic and fear are different, and the other experiences.

I guess the issue is: is the paralysis one feels simply one in which they imagine they can't move in the dream, or an awareness of their actual body's paralysis?


No redefinition, just a better understanding both of what hypnagogia (which I've seen all my life) is and of what hallucinations really our as my mom was a psychiatric nurse and I heard her after work shop talk more than I ever wanted to ;)
Hypnagogia are dreams whether they happen with eyes closed or open and both are generated purely by brain states and everyone experiences hypnagogia whether or not they're aware of it, just as everyone dreams every night whether or not they're aware of it. One can be lucid during hypnagogia and practice dream control on them just like any dream.

Most people can't tell whether or not they're awake, I only can't tell very rarely as I've a lot of experience with the transitions between states. I would not trust them when they say they're awake as too many of them think if one does not lose consciousness one is still awake.
"There is only one God and his name is Death.
And there is only one thing we say to death "not today"
- Syrio Forel

astrovineyard
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Joined: 29 Jan 2015 04:49

Re: My unique list of lucid / sleep paralysis phenomena

Postby astrovineyard » 04 Feb 2015 16:25

Okay, from what you said "hypnagogia (and I assume hypnopompia?) are DREAMS that occur whether eyes are closed or not."

That sounds to me like when it happens with eyes closed they are indistinguishable from "ordinary" dreams. Or is there a difference?

It makes me want to ask the following questions:

1. Are hypnogogic/pompic hallucinations different from ordinary dreams? (Beyond their placement at the beginning or end of sleep, and the fact that one can have one's eyes open during them.)

2. Are eyes every really open during these hallucinations, or does one merely DREAM that they are open (which explains minor differences in the perceived environment)? Are there eyewitness accounts that eyes are actually open? What does one make of the phenomenon of NIGHT TERRORS in which child's eyes are also open and they are terrified but won't awaken? Are those different types of hallucinations, especially since they aren't in REM sleep?

3. If lucidity is the key, then what are the differences (and causes) of dreams and hallucinations whose lucid states are either voluntarily or involuntarily triggered, the dreamer is in control or not in control, or the experience is frightening or pleasant?

4. Where does buzzing come into the picture, and why doesn't it occur in regular dreams?

Udregelig
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Re: My unique list of lucid / sleep paralysis phenomena

Postby Udregelig » 15 Feb 2015 11:15

Flying or floating
Being strangled
Seeing demons or an evil presence


Ive had a SP where i opened my eyes, and i saw a shadow man, standing near my window, and as i looked at him he suddenly where over me and strangled me, and stared me in the face, i just closed my eyes calmly as im not afraid of violence. and i remembered this pulse i was having in my brain, i also had that after he stopped strangling me and having it when i was awake maybe for about 30 seconds :D

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HAGART
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Re: My unique list of lucid / sleep paralysis phenomena

Postby HAGART » 14 Apr 2015 07:24

This bugged me for a while. I too get something I call 'translucent eyelids'. I can see with eyes closed sometimes, but it's not reality. I verified it with a simple blink. It's close though.

Snaggle wrote:I also related here my experiments with hypnagogia where I tried to see through my closed eyes and then while in hypnagogia seeing through them got up and walked around seeing only hypnagogically through closed eyes without bumping into anything and even seeing my cat and opening my eyes to see that he was really there, which he was. I also tried to walk around with normally closed eyes and bumped into both walls and furniture. It was amusing and very interesting that I could use dream eyes to see the real world


I'm glad you have the cure for blindness and will become a millionaire once you reveal your secret to science.

There has to be a catch. That's what's bugging me. It sounds too good to be true.
We all have the wool pulled over our eyes, but turtleneck sweaters are so damn comfortable.

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taniaaust1
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Re: My unique list of lucid / sleep paralysis phenomena

Postby taniaaust1 » 14 Apr 2015 13:19

HAGART wrote:This bugged me for a while. I too get something I call 'translucent eyelids'. I can see with eyes closed sometimes, but it's not reality. I verified it with a simple blink. It's close though.

Snaggle wrote:I also related here my experiments with hypnagogia where I tried to see through my closed eyes and then while in hypnagogia seeing through them got up and walked around seeing only hypnagogically through closed eyes without bumping into anything and even seeing my cat and opening my eyes to see that he was really there, which he was. I also tried to walk around with normally closed eyes and bumped into both walls and furniture. It was amusing and very interesting that I could use dream eyes to see the real world


I'm glad you have the cure for blindness and will become a millionaire once you reveal your secret to science.

There has to be a catch. That's what's bugging me. It sounds too good to be true.


You can probably guess what I think. I think Snaggle was walking around in his astral form and that is how he really managed to see what was there. It wouldn't be at all unusual then. Its well known that many astral projectors say they can see real life things by this (and Ive found that to be true too)..... unlike LD.

I guess if Snaggle doesn't believe in OBE (I don't think he does in the way I do), I guess he'll be then calling them reality lucids or reality dreams.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

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HAGART
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Re: My unique list of lucid / sleep paralysis phenomena

Postby HAGART » 14 Apr 2015 18:58

I'm open minded. I know that the Pineal Gland in our brain is photoreceptive. What is 'light' but just one kind of electromagnetic wave. Other electromagnetic waves on the spectrum pass through bone and muscle all the time, so it's possible that the Pineal Gland, our third eye if you will, may sense these waves just like an eye would.

But I also have to wonder, if this is possible, why isn't it on the front page of every news paper. Isn't this the greatest breakthrough of all time?

Perhaps it's just esoteric because it's not as popular as celebrity gossip and political mayhem that inundates the airwaves.
We all have the wool pulled over our eyes, but turtleneck sweaters are so damn comfortable.


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