RC but no Lucidity?!

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KylePK
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RC but no Lucidity?!

Postby KylePK » 06 May 2012 19:00

For some reason, I have had a few dreams recently where I did a reality check and came to the realization that I am or may be dreaming, yet no lucidity. In one of my dreams, a dream character did something really horrible and used it to prove to me that I must be dreaming, for the tragedy would not have occurred in real life. I accepted the fact that I was probably dreaming, but nothing happened. Last night, I had another dream where I felt something must be wrong, so I looked at my hands. I had 5 fingers and a thumb on one hand and it was all blurry. I had to count the fingers to realize it. But once I saw my hand all messed up, I just sort of brushed it aside and continued with the dream even though I knew it was a dream.

This is frustrating because I wake up really confused as to why I am not achieving lucidity. I write about lucidity in the school newspaper and I think about it quite frequently, but not every minute of every day. I feel like my subconscious should realize by now that I WANT to be lucid and I WANT to remember my dreams. Any insights? I could use them!
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lucidinthe sky
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Re: RC but no Lucidity?!

Postby lucidinthe sky » 06 May 2012 19:42

I think you're very close so just keep going and it shouldn't take much longer.

I've had lucid dreams for around 6 months now, and still have the kinds of experiences you describe. Becoming lucid is a hit or miss proposition. It involves making an active conscious decision during the dream and there is definitely some luck involved. To make up for that, you just need more attempts.

I don't know if you've ever achieved lucidity, but it's certainly worth the any effort you could put into it.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Re: RC but no Lucidity?!

Postby Rebecca » 06 May 2012 22:20

Excerpt from the article... 10 Mistakes Made by Beginner Lucid Dreamers
http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/10-mistakes-made-by-beginner-lucid-dreamers.html

Mistake #9 - Dreaming of lucid dreaming

This isn't really a "mistake" but it does seem to bother a lot of beginners.

People get frustrated when they dream about lucid dreaming, but it doesn't trigger a lucid dream in the moment. This is totally normal, even in experienced oneironauts.

For instance, I once dreamed about giving an entire lecture on lucid dreaming without acknowledging that I was dreaming at the time. I only became lucid at the end when the professor came up to me and said "Let's try some lucid dreaming now." The revelation hit me like a brick. "Of course! I'm dreaming now!"

Truth is, in the dreamscape, I rarely associate the words lucid dreaming with questioning my reality or having greater self awareness. It's just words. In order to become lucid, I usually having to think something like "I'm asleep in bed right now" or best of all "This is a dream!" No need to mess about with fancy words like lucid - what does that even mean to most people? Clarity? If someone says the word "conscious" in your dream, or "control", it doesn't mean anything either, right?

So, don't rely on the phrase lucid dreaming to trigger your lucidity. The trigger is a deep realization that, right now, your current environment is a simulation. It is created by your own dreaming mind on a philosophically self-aware level.



Also you could learn about doing more mindful reality checks, instead of just going through the motions (if that's whats happening). See: http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/reality-checks.html


Lucidinthesky is absolutely right though, this does happen to everyone and sometimes there's nothing you can do about it, but with practice you will become lucid at the crucial moment, it just takes ongoing attempts. (And should happen less and less as you become more accustomed to the moment of clarity.)

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Ryan
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Re: RC but no Lucidity?!

Postby Ryan » 06 May 2012 22:49

I simply don't understand this "dreaming of lucid dreaming" phenomenon that people are reporting.

To me, the original post is quite clear.
KylePK wrote:For some reason, I have had a few dreams recently where I did a reality check and came to the realization that I am or may be dreaming, yet no lucidity.

Being "lucid", to me, is realizing that you're in a dream. Nothing more. In my opinion, your reality check was successful.

To me, the "dreaming of a lucid dream" idea doesn't work because I don't understand how someone can be dreaming that they're aware in a dream?

You're either aware that you're dreaming or you're not aware that you're dreaming.

If you're aware that you're dreaming, it's a lucid dream... if you're not aware that you're dreaming, it's a dream.

For my clarity... could someone explain this "Dreaming of a lucid dream" phenomenon please so I can try to understand where you guys are coming from and what metaphors you're using? :)

In one of my dreams, a dream character did something really horrible and used it to prove to me that I must be dreaming, for the tragedy would not have occurred in real life. I accepted the fact that I was probably dreaming, but nothing happened.

The bold denotes the beginning of the lucid dream.
As for the "but nothing happened"... what are you expecting to happen?

Last night, I had another dream where I felt something must be wrong, so I looked at my hands. I had 5 fingers and a thumb on one hand and it was all blurry. I had to count the fingers to realize it. But once I saw my hand all messed up, I just sort of brushed it aside and continued with the dream even though I knew it was a dream.

This would be a case where I'd say you weren't lucid dreaming.
This was a normal dream which you *ALMOST* attained a lucid awareness in.
You did the test, it passed... but you seemingly ignored the result and continued on unaware.

This is frustrating because I wake up really confused as to why I am not achieving lucidity. I write about lucidity in the school newspaper and I think about it quite frequently, but not every minute of every day. I feel like my subconscious should realize by now that I WANT to be lucid and I WANT to remember my dreams. Any insights? I could use them!

That's just it really... you *ARE* attaining lucidity, and you seem to be doing it quite well too!

For me, I ask myself a simple question: Did I REALLY *KNOW*, at the time of the experience, that I was dreaming. Yes = lucid dream... no = dream.
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lucidinthe sky
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Re: RC but no Lucidity?!

Postby lucidinthe sky » 07 May 2012 00:01

Ryan wrote:For my clarity... could someone explain this "Dreaming of a lucid dream" phenomenon please so I can try to understand where you guys are coming from and what metaphors you're using?


No insult intended, but actually it is a fairly simple concept. You can dream about doing anything. Most of the time, this would include doing all kinds of things you do in waking life, but you can also dream about having a lucid dream. Why not? You can dream about waking up too, that's called a "false awakening". There are probably people dreaming of sleep paralysis and other dream related things. The only limit is your imagination.

I suspect a lot of people are having dreams of lucid dreaming and thinking it's a real lucid dream, especially when you want it really badly (like most of us). My dreams about lucid dreaming contain all of the items of a regular lucid dream: Reality checks (they always work in these dreams), me telling everyone in the dream I'm lucid dreaming and getting excited about it, controlling the dream, etc. But it all feels planned and there is no "aha" moment. A lot of times when I really get lucid, I say to myself "Got it!"The big way you can tell is by the memories of the dream, when all the memories including be lucid are the same and fade at the same rate, nothing stands out, I know it's a dream about lucid dreaming.

Here's the bottom line, we experience dreams mainly from our memories of them after we wake up. We try to remember what happened and it's always a bit fuzzy. In lucid dreams we experience the dream live, everything is very real as if we are awake and that makes a completely different impresssion on our memory when we wake up. We are experiencing the dream while it's going on, not after we wake up.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Ryan
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Re: RC but no Lucidity?!

Postby Ryan » 07 May 2012 02:04

lucidinthe sky wrote:No insult intended, but actually it is a fairly simple concept.

None taken. :)
I've been hearing this term for a while now and for the life of me I can't figure out what people mean by it.

You can dream about doing anything. Most of the time, this would include doing all kinds of things you do in waking life, but you can also dream about having a lucid dream. Why not?

Dreaming that you're having a lucid dream... denotes that you realize that you're dreaming. Which then makes it not a dream anymore, but a lucid dream, because you realize you're dreaming. I don't understand how you can dream about lucid dreaming... when being lucid means it's a lucid dream and not a dream.

Am I making any sense? LoL

You can dream about waking up too, that's called a "false awakening". There are probably people dreaming of sleep paralysis and other dream related things. The only limit is your imagination.

Yes, but a false awakening is you thinking you're awake when you're actually not. Can you "think" you're lucid dreaming? I don't think you can, because if you "think" you're dreaming, then you're already lucid dreaming. You COULD do the reality checks, have them pass, but you completely ignore that fact and keep going on, but then that's just a "dream" because you didn't become aware enough to realize that you're dreaming.

I suspect a lot of people are having dreams of lucid dreaming and thinking it's a real lucid dream, especially when you want it really badly (like most of us). My dreams about lucid dreaming contain all of the items of a regular lucid dream: Reality checks (they always work in these dreams), me telling everyone in the dream I'm lucid dreaming and getting excited about it, controlling the dream, etc. But it all feels planned and there is no "aha" moment. A lot of times when I really get lucid, I say to myself "Got it!"The big way you can tell is by the memories of the dream, when all the memories including be lucid are the same and fade at the same rate, nothing stands out, I know it's a dream about lucid dreaming.

See, to me, the experience you relay here is, entirely, a lucid dream! The concept that you're "aware that you're dreaming while you're dreaming" is the key point. You did a reality check and you figured out you were actually dreaming. I don't see how this can be termed "dreaming of lucid dreaming". It just makes no sense to me. It's like a double negative or something. LoL

Here's the bottom line, we experience dreams mainly from our memories of them after we wake up. We try to remember what happened and it's always a bit fuzzy. In lucid dreams we experience the dream live, everything is very real as if we are awake and that makes a completely different impresssion on our memory when we wake up. We are experiencing the dream while it's going on, not after we wake up.

See, this is probably where I'm completely different. Regardless of whether I'm dreaming, lucid dreaming or astral projecting... I'm always directly experiencing the experience as it's happening. My dreams are experienced as live and real as right this very second feels to me.

What differs between all my experiences is simply how consciously aware I am during them. I'm either consciously aware that I'm experiencing a reality that isn't this physical reality. OR, I'm not aware that I'm experiencing a reality that isn't this physical reality. But it's all "live" and in full technicolour 3D.

So you can understand my confusion when people talk about "dreaming of lucid dreaming". I just don't see how the term can even remotely exist.

To me it seems like people are adding an extra layer of complexity to something that is very basic and simple. You're either aware that you're dreaming (lucid dream), or not aware that you're dreaming (dream).
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lucidinthe sky
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Re: RC but no Lucidity?!

Postby lucidinthe sky » 07 May 2012 03:27

Ryan wrote:Can you "think" you're lucid dreaming? I don't think you can, because if you "think" you're dreaming, then you're already lucid dreaming.


No, not necessarily. In a dream about lucid dreaming, you are not aware that you are dreaming, just dreaming about the idea. There is a big difference between the too. It's probably hard to imagine if you never had one of these dreams of a lucid dream, but they are really not the same. When you wake up you immediately know somethinmg wasn't right because you had the real thing before and when that happened, you were awake during your dream as opposed to just dreaming about the experience. The difference is the same for example, as dreaming you were driving a car vs. actually driving the car. The lucid dream is like actually driving he car instead of dreaming about it.

Ryan wrote:Yes, but a false awakening is you thinking you're awake when you're actually not. Can you "think" you're lucid dreaming?


I agree that this is different since you are already lucid when you have a false awakening, but of course you could dream you are having a false awakening :)

Ryan wrote:Can you "think" you're lucid dreaming? I don't think you can, because if you "think" you're dreaming, then you're already lucid dreaming.


You're not "thinking about it" you're dreaming about it. There is a big difference. I can also dream about doing reality checks and WOW! they work! In fact they always work in a dream about lucid dreaming because you make up the fact that you are having a lucid dream and you make up the fact that you succesfully had reality checks, no surprise. But you aren't actually having one. It's a planned lucid dream which is just another dream VS. an actual one where you can never really plan whether you will become lucid since it is a choice you either make or don't make. It's not predictable, whereas dreams about lucid dreaming are completely predictable.
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Re: RC but no Lucidity?!

Postby LucidKey13 » 07 May 2012 06:06

I agree in the sense that as soon as you realize you are dreaming, you are then having a lucid dream. You can still have a Lucid dream that is slightly fuzzy or patchy - this could just mean that you are on a low level of lucidity or are going in and out of lucidity in some places.
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Re: RC but no Lucidity?!

Postby KylePK » 09 May 2012 06:55

Thank you all for your feedback! I see that earlier some may have been stuck on how I meant lucid. I mean it in the sense that I not only gain awareness of my own dreaming, but I gain control. To me, gaining awareness without control does nothing, I just continue dreaming as if it was any other typical dream. Or maybe these instances are instances of me dreaming that I became lucid, when I in fact have not become lucid. The subconscious can project your desires to become lucid into a dream without actually letting the conscious mind into the dream, which prevents you from truly becoming lucid. To my understanding, anyway.
That is how I believe one might dream of lucid dreaming.
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Ryan
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Re: RC but no Lucidity?!

Postby Ryan » 10 May 2012 00:28

See, for me it's entirely super simple... if you're aware that you're dreaming while you're dreaming it's a lucid dream. This concept of dreaming of a lucid dream... UNLESS you're talking about having a dream where you're discussion the topic of lucid dreaming (THAT would be dreaming about a lucid dream)... then I could see it.

But other that that...

lucidinthe sky wrote:You're not "thinking about it" you're dreaming about it. There is a big difference. I can also dream about doing reality checks and WOW! they work! In fact they always work in a dream about lucid dreaming because you make up the fact that you are having a lucid dream and you make up the fact that you succesfully had reality checks, no surprise. But you aren't actually having one. It's a planned lucid dream which is just another dream VS. an actual one where you can never really plan whether you will become lucid since it is a choice you either make or don't make. It's not predictable, whereas dreams about lucid dreaming are completely predictable.

See to me that's a straight up lucid dream. You did a reality check and you realized you were dreaming! UNLESS you completely ignored that fact and didn't gain the awareness. Then it's a normal dream again.

LucidKey13 wrote:I agree in the sense that as soon as you realize you are dreaming, you are then having a lucid dream. You can still have a Lucid dream that is slightly fuzzy or patchy - this could just mean that you are on a low level of lucidity or are going in and out of lucidity in some places.

Although, regardless of how what level of lucidity you have... you have a level of lucidity above "not being lucid".

KylePK wrote:Thank you all for your feedback! I see that earlier some may have been stuck on how I meant lucid. I mean it in the sense that I not only gain awareness of my own dreaming, but I gain control. To me, gaining awareness without control does nothing, I just continue dreaming as if it was any other typical dream. Or maybe these instances are instances of me dreaming that I became lucid, when I in fact have not become lucid. The subconscious can project your desires to become lucid into a dream without actually letting the conscious mind into the dream, which prevents you from truly becoming lucid. To my understanding, anyway.

That is how I believe one might dream of lucid dreaming.

To me, control is always a secondary characteristic and is actually reflective of the type of reality you're actually experiencing... if it's more collective and less individual/personal, you'll have less "control" because other consciousnesses are stabilizing the reality. I believe that's why this collective consciousness physical reality we're all experiencing right now is so stable and constant.
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