The Simulation Argument

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antianticamper
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The Simulation Argument

Postby antianticamper » 31 May 2012 17:15

Thanks to Rebecca for posting the article discussing the Simulation Argument. Here is her article:

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/the-simulation-argument.html

Here is the original paper:

http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html

As a mathematician, I think the application of formal probability to the argument is an overreach, at best, and the AI foundation for the argument seems naive to me. However there are some VERY interesting ideas beginning in Section 6 (Interpretation), paragraph 8 which will probably be of interest to many people on this forum.

aac

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Peter
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Re: The Simulation Argument

Postby Peter » 31 May 2012 22:30

Interesting discussion that will no doubt lead to some belief systems, how relevant this is to reality will be an ongoing debate
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Jack Reacher
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Re: The Simulation Argument

Postby Jack Reacher » 02 Jun 2012 06:25

I remember reading this a while ago. Eh, I dont really believe it, I dont think technology will ever be able to create a simulation that somehow creates consciousness.

Something else thats interesting is a universe that is made in a lab by physicists. How do we know our universe isnt part of long chain of universes within universes?
"There is theoretical abstraction, and then there is true abstraction."

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: The Simulation Argument

Postby lucidinthe sky » 02 Jun 2012 19:17

At this point I am leaning toward the belief that all physical reality is a manifestation of conscious beings made of light energy (the only thing that truly exists), in other words we all create this reality. In the words of The Matrix: "there is no spoon". I know this is a radical belief system and impossible to prove in a scientific manner and I won't attempt to prove it. But there is no question about the fact that the world we know and experience must be created with our senses and we are not capable of experiencing physical reality as it truly is.

I think life here on earth is in one way or another a "virtual reality" much like lucid dreams and in a sense, is a simulation. We are all participating together to manifest our physical reality and agree on the rules that operate in it so it is very stable.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Peter
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Re: The Simulation Argument

Postby Peter » 02 Jun 2012 22:16

what part of this is created and when did it start, I am sure the first few people did not have the brain power to hold this sim in place and before that what about the bacteria. I know there is a lot of them but did they hold this world together and how about the transition from first soup to us as so much of the physical is similar and unchanged in many ways.
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: The Simulation Argument

Postby lucidinthe sky » 03 Jun 2012 00:28

Peter wrote:what part of this is created and when did it start, I am sure the first few people did not have the brain power to hold this sim in place


I don't think anyone is prepared to explain the beginning the universe as we know it. No matter what theory you subscribe to, the question will always arise: "And what happened before that?" To think about something as having always existed is difficult if not impossible for our human brains which are living with the concept of time. I believe consciousness may have organized itself over time, and maybe that is the part of the process we are undertaking here, but I think it has always existed.

If the universe as we know it exists as a manifestation, it would certainly have to be done by something much larger than human brains which I think are more or less an interface device. But we are building more and more advanced computers which are now almost equal to the entire human brain power of planet Earth. If computers continue to advance, we will create our own simulations and virtual reality devices then at some point the question of "what is real" will get really interesting.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Peter
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Re: The Simulation Argument

Postby Peter » 03 Jun 2012 00:58

cool, I dont have a theory at all but do have an endless stream of questions. I do think that the dreaming world and that area is the creation and work in progress and the physical is the womb and more of an experiment. We may all be punished by being here and growth in the dream state is the key to completing out time and moving on.
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: The Simulation Argument

Postby lucidinthe sky » 03 Jun 2012 02:42

Peter wrote:I do think that the dreaming world and that area is the creation and work in progress and the physical is the womb and more of an experiment.


I've read your posts and get the impression that your lucid dream world is as real as mine. I'm completely amazed that we are capable of creating a world that is so real. When I have a lucid dream I am physically stepping into a reality as if through a curtain of some kind. Two dimension fuzzy into three dimension hi definition just like flipping a switch. At that point, there is no difference to waking reality.

From where does this ability come? How can we create something like that? How can imagination have 3 dimensions, gravity, hot and cold, rough edges, solid surfaces, smells, pain? I often wake myself up from lucid dreams because I can't process it yet. It's too much for me sometimes. Much of the time during lucid dreams I'm thinking "Get out of here, I don't believe this." and "How can this be a dream? No way!" I like to have space between them just so I can try to process the experience. It really wouldn't surprise me if our entire life is some kind of lucid dream. From what I've experineced so far, I don't think I'd be able to tell the difference.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Peter
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Re: The Simulation Argument

Postby Peter » 03 Jun 2012 09:11

It is that real and yet it a different kind or reality. What continues to stun me is the more experienced I get the more I am puzzled by it all. I dont even bother with stabilizing dreams a lot of the time, I am there and that is it. I can do all the stuff I want, fly got thorough walls etc so it is a different reality but it is a Constance of some kind and wonder if as we can get better at it we also get better at maintaining the dream body or energy body so we can experience it. A baby has to explore its own body before it knows it has one, so the awareness is the first thing and then away we go. In a nutshell it is not as real or real as those words defy and belittle the dreamworld, it IS another existence and I think of it as my other life, no better no worse and no less. I learn, have friends a( getting to know them better) maybe more friends than in this world in some ways, I retain memories and this leads to actions in this world so like you it is another existence.

It really wouldn't surprise me if our entire life is some kind of lucid dream. From what I've experineced so far, I don't think I'd be able to tell the difference.

This I am not sure about but in some ways yes you must be right, its all personal and the world you see is not the one I see. They are close but cant be the same. In quiet moments I can think about it and not pick the difference but know it is not a dream in the same sense as it is different. Its a great puzzle and one I dont tire of
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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dichotomies
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Re: The Simulation Argument

Postby dichotomies » 03 Jun 2012 13:35

The Simulation Argument is just the philosophical... conjectural aspect of the idea. I first saw this and went.. hmm,, yes quite possibly.
But then! I read the amazing ...(everything-changing!) paper by NZer Brian Whitworth "The Physical World as a Virtual Reality" To me this paper clearly shows that the laws of physics very strongly suggest or point to a simulation... a computation. eg Why is there a speed limit of universe? (light speed) and why does time slow down when objects moving are very very fast (near lightspeed) Answer: because there is a processing speed to reality. When things are too big or too fast they slow down the computation.

This site has a summary table of the basic principles. http://www.transcend.ws/?p=1667

Well It totally freaked me out when I read the paper. And now I KNOW we are in a simulation. And Brian Whitworth is a genius for seeing through what we are taught... to see the true simplicity of why reality is the way it appears.


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