What are your religious views?

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What are your religious views?

Deeply religious - I follow a strict religious code and trust my life to a higher authority
22
19%
Somewhat religious - I believe in a higher intelligence watching over us
38
32%
Agnostic - I'm on the fence; you really can't say either way at this time
29
25%
Atheist - I don't believe there is a higher intelligence watching over us
29
25%
 
Total votes: 118

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Peter
Posts: 1951
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Location: New Zealand

Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Peter » 13 Jul 2012 15:51

After a lifetime of LD and all manner of experiences I am yet to be convinced that anything is outside of our head, I have not said I agree of disagree but that I dont know and have no proof of anything. As for the debate that there just must be because... well no there does not need to be at all. I would like there to be and I dont know and dont really speculate on it too much.

As for the sentence on paranormal experiences, I don't see what experiencing them in a living body would matter.


It would matter if it is all in out head and if when the power is turned off there is nothing anymore and so no experience.

So many people start to believe after say one near death experience, I have had some of these and they are the same as an OBE but in real time and possibly a trick of awareness and nothing more, I dont know. I do expect that one experiences and sometimes the desperation of the moment will greatly sway an opinion and become fact in someones mind.
This is a good thing but not for me
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

Ty8200
Posts: 105
Joined: 04 Jun 2012 08:26

Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Ty8200 » 13 Jul 2012 19:08

Peter wrote:After a lifetime of LD and all manner of experiences I am yet to be convinced that anything is outside of our head, I have not said I agree of disagree but that I dont know and have no proof of anything. As for the debate that there just must be because... well no there does not need to be at all. I would like there to be and I dont know and dont really speculate on it too much.

As for the sentence on paranormal experiences, I don't see what experiencing them in a living body would matter.


It would matter if it is all in out head and if when the power is turned off there is nothing anymore and so no experience.

So many people start to believe after say one near death experience, I have had some of these and they are the same as an OBE but in real time and possibly a trick of awareness and nothing more, I dont know. I do expect that one experiences and sometimes the desperation of the moment will greatly sway an opinion and become fact in someones mind.
This is a good thing but not for me


I don't understand... As far as what you believe, you seem neutral. You don't resign to one belief or another, yet you'd prefer there to be an afterlife, but you choose to believe there isn't one? I know that, just because there are so many people who question this, that there must be an afterlife isn't true, but it hints at it. I don't claim to know the truth, and neither does anyone. Or should they, at least.

As for me personally, I'd like there to be one, so I'll hope for it. If it turns out I'm wrong, so be it. I won't care, obviously. However, resigning to the belief that we are nothing more than machines, is a little depressing, and since the chances seem better from my perspective, I'll go with that.

Well, I'm not really talking about near-death experiences, but there are some mind-blowing stories about them. I'll tell you one... I don't remember much of it, but I'll get to the most interesting part.

This lady was in a near-death experience (by the way, your heart stopping for a duration is the only real NDE), and she was in the hospital. She explained what was like an OBE. She was out of body, watching her mother and someone else talking (keep in mind, the daughter was unconscious in another room). The mother said she was going to step outside for a cigarette. The daughter didn't know her mother smoked, and when the daughter questioned the mother about it, it not only turned out to be true, but she was also able to recollect the conversation, perfectly. She was technically dead.

Interesting story, and one that gets me thinking about things. There was also an atheist who had a near death experience, who told of a horrifying experience. Tied to a post, unable to move, feeling very scared, he said it was Hell. Then, a giant hand came through the darkness, with a thundering voice, and released him. He described that as God. Keep in mind, this was an atheist. Well, until that experience, at least. I don't know if you've had a real NDE, or just a close call, but for a real NDE, you need to be technically dead. Heart stopped, brain stopped, dead. Then revived.

In my mind, I think there is a better chance of something more, so that's what I'll go with. If I strongly believed the other way, then I would live with it, even if it meant being less happy. I go with what I think is the truth, and since no one can say for sure, I'll go with my intuition.
Reality is the sight, where reflection is the truth.
Water is the glass, where deception is the stone.
Reality is the cage, where limit is the lock.
Mind is the key, where only the blind can see.

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Peter
Posts: 1951
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Peter » 13 Jul 2012 20:27

I don't understand... As far as what you believe, you seem neutral.


Yes I am neutral, the stronger a reason for a belief the less I run with it. I would like there to be an after life as much as anyone but I have no proof of it and I dont want to waste the time I have here trying to be a better person or whatever to seek a nice afterlife if there is one. I am living this one and enjoying it.

However, resigning to the belief that we are nothing more than machines, is a little depressing


I am excited to be alive and enjoying and experiencing this world, why is that not enough. For now we are the only living beings that exist and all the wishing and looking has not changed that. Yes there is a lot of talk about other planets but so far not one bit of life - so we are it. What are the chances of an afterlife if we are it - some freakish oddity that somehow got conscious. Earth may be the equal of a universal compost heap encapsulated by nature in a small and unwanted universe and we crawled out of the slime and got conscious - opps that's what happened.

I am neutral and would like an afterlife and I explore the dream world and have had enough experiences to start many religions if I had a bent for those beliefs
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

Ty8200
Posts: 105
Joined: 04 Jun 2012 08:26

Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Ty8200 » 14 Jul 2012 09:49

Yes I am neutral, the stronger a reason for a belief the less I run with it. I would like there to be an after life as much as anyone but I have no proof of it and I dont want to waste the time I have here trying to be a better person or whatever to seek a nice afterlife if there is one. I am living this one and enjoying it.


No one said you need to be a better person. And I don't think it's a waste of time to contemplate our existence or the possibility of an afterlife. Besides, you never know... What you think here may affect your afterlife, if there is one. What you think may even prevent one altogether, if you don't believe in it. I like to keep my mind open to everything for this reason.


I am excited to be alive and enjoying and experiencing this world, why is that not enough.


I'm not saying it isn't. I debate for the sake of understanding the various types of beliefs. There are no wrong or right beliefs, they just exist.

For now we are the only living beings that exist and all the wishing and looking has not changed that. Yes there is a lot of talk about other planets but so far not one bit of life - so we are it. What are the chances of an afterlife if we are it - some freakish oddity that somehow got conscious. Earth may be the equal of a universal compost heap encapsulated by nature in a small and unwanted universe and we crawled out of the slime and got conscious - opps that's what happened.


Our consciousness is what we see, hear and feel. What we think is a combination of those things, filtered through observation. I highly, highly doubt we are the only conscious beings. These other consciousness's will be different then ours. We wouldn't understand such things if they were right in front of us. We weren't meant for it. We only have a vague understanding of the human body, we are very limited. What place do we have to try and understand more?

I am neutral and would like an afterlife and I explore the dream world and have had enough experiences to start many religions if I had a bent for those beliefs


Fair enough. All I'd like people to do is open their mind a little.

EDIT: I thought of a way to possibly prove the existence of something like a soul. Dark science, and probably won't ever be allowed, but a thought. Okay, you have a scientist and a person. The scientist kills the person long enough to present a test. The test would be a visual one. The scientist would hold something that the dead person wouldn't be able to see. Then the scientist would revive the person and ask them what it was. If they were able to tell what is was, this would prove we literally go outside of our bodies upon death. This is similar to my first story on the NDE patient. Where she could see and hear her mother talking to someone about something she had no knowledge of, yet the story was true. But like I said, It probably wouldn't be allowed.
Reality is the sight, where reflection is the truth.
Water is the glass, where deception is the stone.
Reality is the cage, where limit is the lock.
Mind is the key, where only the blind can see.

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Peter
Posts: 1951
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Peter » 15 Jul 2012 04:49

No one said you need to be a better person. And I don't think it's a waste of time to contemplate our existence or the possibility of an afterlife.


I think about it a lot and it is very interesting, all I claim is that at the moment is a wishful belief that is based in subjective experience an not fact. That simple.
Our consciousness is what we see, hear and feel


Dont agree with that, what we see, hear and feel and produced by our senses and very limited, look at how "real" a LD is and the senses are not even invloved. Only an enhanced set of experienced that may be based on the stored data from them.
These other consciousness's will be different then ours.


This is the sort of theme that I have been saying for years, we are very limited and cannot understand much past our own frame of referance and so some of the answers could be in from of our face and we would not know. I dont think we will solve anything with the way current science is going in the areas of afterlife as all we get are more un answerable questions.

I highly, highly doubt we are the only conscious beings.


Most likely not, I feel that the dreamworld and this includes all manner of experience, oob, ld, astral travel and all others are the start of an understanding of us in a new way and the gateway to some other existance if there is one but in our human way most of what goes on in this dreamspace is all selfish. We play games and seek fun and comfort and this is limiting. In the beginning it will allow skills to delvop but like a child we need to get past play and gain some maturity along with our new skills and reach out into new areas.
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

Ty8200
Posts: 105
Joined: 04 Jun 2012 08:26

Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Ty8200 » 15 Jul 2012 20:21

Peter wrote:I think about it a lot and it is very interesting, all I claim is that at the moment is a wishful belief that is based in subjective experience an not fact. That simple.


Well, sure. It's also wishful thinking to hope for a promotion at your job. Doesn't mean it won't happen. It doesn't mean it will, either, but it might, is what I'm saying.

Dont agree with that, what we see, hear and feel and produced by our senses and very limited, look at how "real" a LD is and the senses are not even invloved. Only an enhanced set of experienced that may be based on the stored data from them.


I merely meant that this is how we perceive our consciousness. I agree that this is very limited, and there are most assuredly different ways to perceive this consciousness. But we were born and bred to see and feel things the way we do. We were taught that "this is this" and "that is that". Another example of how words and labels can severely limit consciousness.

This is the sort of theme that I have been saying for years, we are very limited and cannot understand much past our own frame of referance and so some of the answers could be in from of our face and we would not know. I dont think we will solve anything with the way current science is going in the areas of afterlife as all we get are more un answerable questions.

True, I agree completely. Everything is based off of things we've already labeled, so we will only understand it from that perspective. We won't get anywhere different. Like traveling in a circle.

Most likely not, I feel that the dreamworld and this includes all manner of experience, oob, ld, astral travel and all others are the start of an understanding of us in a new way and the gateway to some other existance if there is one but in our human way most of what goes on in this dreamspace is all selfish. We play games and seek fun and comfort and this is limiting. In the beginning it will allow skills to delvop but like a child we need to get past play and gain some maturity along with our new skills and reach out into new areas.


Yeah, I get what you mean. I think people take advantage of the dreamspace. They're too busy with self gratification to really learn anything important about it. When I have a LD, I know to have a different perspective.
Reality is the sight, where reflection is the truth.
Water is the glass, where deception is the stone.
Reality is the cage, where limit is the lock.
Mind is the key, where only the blind can see.

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Summerlander
Posts: 3639
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Summerlander » 28 Jul 2012 00:21

Peter wrote:After a lifetime of LD and all manner of experiences I am yet to be convinced that anything is outside of our head, I have not said I agree of disagree but that I dont know and have no proof of anything. As for the debate that there just must be because... well no there does not need to be at all. I would like there to be and I dont know and dont really speculate on it too much.

As for the sentence on paranormal experiences, I don't see what experiencing them in a living body would matter.


It would matter if it is all in out head and if when the power is turned off there is nothing anymore and so no experience.

So many people start to believe after say one near death experience, I have had some of these and they are the same as an OBE but in real time and possibly a trick of awareness and nothing more, I dont know. I do expect that one experiences and sometimes the desperation of the moment will greatly sway an opinion and become fact in someones mind.
This is a good thing but not for me


I've experienced both lucid dreams and OOBEs. I see no reason, so far, to disbelieve that they are only a type of WILD. As far as I'm aware, lucid dreaming can recreate any kind of experience. There is no going out of the body because you are your body. With the development of your body (especially your brain) came the development of your consciousness and sense of self. Hence why we have come so far since babyhood.

You need your brain to experience the world. You need a functional brain to have a sense of self. Everything, including your waking perception, happens in your brain. There is a simple analogy for the phenomenon of consciousness. Like dust comes together in space to produce heat and light (the birth of stars eventuated by gravity) so does consciousness arise and develop as a byproduct of biological systems as complex as the ones in the human cerebrum.

On NDEs... despite what you might have heard as regards to verification, it is all anecdotal evidence. they are traumatically induced OOBEs. Actually, I will go as far as to say that it happened to me once and here is an even better name for it that I propose: TILDs (trauma-initiated lucid dreams).

When they say the brain isn't active during such experiences... it is false. More appropriately, one can say that in certain cases there is no measurable brain activity. But it is only not measurable due to the equipment available. EEG is not enough to dig deeper. Someone like Michael Persinger, on the other hand, can measure what can't be detected in most hospitals. He will tell you that the brain is very much active beyond the EEG scope and in tandem with conscious experience in such trauma-induced states.

I'm sorry but I am a very scientifically-minded individual and as far as I can tell, death is equivalent to the pre-birth state. The only way you can come back after death is if the universe stumbles upon the right coordinates in space that bring about your awareness (and you wouldn't necessarily be the same person).
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Peter
Posts: 1951
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Peter » 28 Jul 2012 00:40

On NDEs... despite what you might have heard as regards to verification, it is all anecdotal evidence. they are traumatically induced OOBEs. Actually, I will go as far as to say that it happened to me once and here is an even better name for it that I propose: TILDs (trauma-initiated lucid dreams).



exactly my thoughts, in spite of what may want to be believed it all happens in a living body at some time in the future after out birth. Before and after life and death is wishfull thinking and grounds for belief induced religion - but not based in fact
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Summerlander
Posts: 3639
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Summerlander » 28 Jul 2012 00:54

Exactamundo.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Jack Reacher
Posts: 490
Joined: 21 Jan 2012 05:03
Location: New Zealand

Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Jack Reacher » 28 Jul 2012 11:07

So its kinda like the whole alien abduction phenomenon when people wake up to sleep paralysis. Instead of Aliens though I somehow wake up with my bed in a position where I cannot move, its kinda funny and embarrassing, its my minds way of making sense of sleep paralysis I guess.
"There is theoretical abstraction, and then there is true abstraction."


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