Summerlander wrote:Peter wrote:After a lifetime of LD and all manner of experiences I am yet to be convinced that anything is outside of our head, I have not said I agree of disagree but that I dont know and have no proof of anything. As for the debate that there just must be because... well no there does not need to be at all. I would like there to be and I dont know and dont really speculate on it too much.As for the sentence on paranormal experiences, I don't see what experiencing them in a living body would matter.
It would matter if it is all in out head and if when the power is turned off there is nothing anymore and so no experience.
So many people start to believe after say one near death experience, I have had some of these and they are the same as an OBE but in real time and possibly a trick of awareness and nothing more, I dont know. I do expect that one experiences and sometimes the desperation of the moment will greatly sway an opinion and become fact in someones mind.
This is a good thing but not for me
I've experienced both lucid dreams and OOBEs. I see no reason, so far, to disbelieve that they are only a type of WILD. As far as I'm aware, lucid dreaming can recreate any kind of experience. There is no going out of the body because you are your body. With the development of your body (especially your brain) came the development of your consciousness and sense of self. Hence why we have come so far since babyhood.
You need your brain to experience the world. You need a functional brain to have a sense of self. Everything, including your waking perception, happens in your brain. There is a simple analogy for the phenomenon of consciousness. Like dust comes together in space to produce heat and light (the birth of stars eventuated by gravity) so does consciousness arise and develop as a byproduct of biological systems as complex as the ones in the human cerebrum.
On NDEs... despite what you might have heard as regards to verification, it is all anecdotal evidence. they are traumatically induced OOBEs. Actually, I will go as far as to say that it happened to me once and here is an even better name for it that I propose: TILDs (trauma-initiated lucid dreams).
When they say the brain isn't active during such experiences... it is false. More appropriately, one can say that in certain cases there is no measurable brain activity. But it is only not measurable due to the equipment available. EEG is not enough to dig deeper. Someone like Michael Persinger, on the other hand, can measure what can't be detected in most hospitals. He will tell you that the brain is very much active beyond the EEG scope and in tandem with conscious experience in such trauma-induced states.
I'm sorry but I am a very scientifically-minded individual and as far as I can tell, death is equivalent to the pre-birth state. The only way you can come back after death is if the universe stumbles upon the right coordinates in space that bring about your awareness (and you wouldn't necessarily be the same person).
I think what we need to understand is that there are no real facts. Facts are what we believe to be the truth, through experimentation, repeated tests, and observation. But what we see through our human eyes, is only true to our eyes. It may be true to our human eyes and ears, but there is still much we won't and can't ever know, through eyes, ears, or all of the technology in the world, which is based on these things.
We will never agree because we are too different. No matter how persuasive you or I could be, it won't change anything. We have our beliefs, and neither are right or wrong, true or false. Saying otherwise is beyond our human power, and beyond our human perception. We will believe what we want to believe, and that's it. With all of that said, it's still interesting to see the amount humans, being the same animal, can be so different. Thank you for the debate, guys.
P.S. Anybody watching the London 2012 Olympics?