Proof of two identities and/or higher self.

For general lucid chat - ask questions, share advice, set lucid dream challenges and explore the lucid realm together.
rdubya
Posts: 175
Joined: 21 Jun 2011 21:15

Proof of two identities and/or higher self.

Postby rdubya » 28 Jun 2011 21:14

So I just wanted to gather some others thoughts on this.

Since right now we believe LD are being created by our subconcious, the fact that we do not have full control over everything that occurs shows that our subconcious mind will act on its own accord, even if it is against our conscious self. (Or until it learns to listen to the conscious mind) This has led me to three possible conclusions:

1: Your subconscious and conscious is what makes you you, they are different and even make different choices from one another. The subconscious only learns from past experiences, and may not make the same conclusions as the conscious mind. (I am not sure how this can be the situation since the conscious and subconscious mind would have no difference in experiences and should always conclude the same results. Also, the subconscious would not have any real purpose as everything would only be conscious, it would just depend what you are aware of at a given time)

2: A higher self controls the subconscious, which is influenced by more than just this life's experiences.

3: Your subconscious does remember everything you have taught it in this life, but it can also contain influences from your higher self which would could be a cause of different conclusions between what appears to be from your subconscious vs your conscious self.


If conclusions 2 and 3 are true, I can see it very possible to astral travel and OBE as it would be possible to use your higher self to influence your subconscious experiences while you are conscious of them occurring.

aamorim
Posts: 15
Joined: 26 Jun 2011 02:47

Re: Proof of two identities and/or higher self.

Postby aamorim » 28 Jun 2011 23:30

Very interesting post rdubya,

It's related to Freudian theory about how our mind, psyche is
divided into conscious, subconscious and unconscious and that unconscious
was divided into ID, ego, superego.

Those respectable ideas, for instance, still valid from a broad point of view, but what
psychology accept now days is that our brain works in parallel while processing and interpreting
the information surround us and we not aware about everything.

To make things more clear lets look at an abnormal cases like

Karen Byrne
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12225166

Scientists start speculate now that each hemisphere of the brain has its own conscious.
It's make every of us a bit schizophrenic LOL ..

But regards the "astral voyage" we need to go further and ask if mind is separate from
body, or mind is just product of our brain (Rene Descartes, mind-body problem)


All the best
--Andre
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
--Carl Jung

rdubya
Posts: 175
Joined: 21 Jun 2011 21:15

Re: Proof of two identities and/or higher self.

Postby rdubya » 29 Jun 2011 01:21

aamorim wrote:
But regards the "astral voyage" we need to go further and ask if mind is separate from
body, or mind is just product of our brain (Rene Descartes, mind-body problem)



I'll have to look into more of the Freud studies. Funny how when we are in school we don't care about these subjects, but when we can learn on our own we sure wish we paid attention!

I think that is the fundamental difference between spiritual people and non spiritual people. Spiritual people believe the mind to be separate from the brain, where as non-spiritual believe it is solely a product of our brain.

I personally believe it is the combination of the two. That some aspects are the product of our brain, but other aspects are connected to non-physical dimensions/realms/whatever you want to call it. Right now, we lack concrete and socially accepted evidence of the theory that the mind is other than just the product of the brain. But that is what is keeping me here, I want to know the truth for myself.

User avatar
Peter
Posts: 1951
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: Proof of two identities and/or higher self.

Postby Peter » 29 Jun 2011 01:46

I like this thread.
I break into 3 simple areas for a start, waking awareness in which we exist in a physical world and have, collect and store a range of experiences. These are converted to energy and stored in some form in our minds. Secondly is our other self that we are aware of in the LD state or an expression of this self as it plays and creates randomly and wilfully as it chooses. As correctly stated we can influence this but in the same way we can choose from a menu in a restaurant or walk out and find another so I see nothing too skilful in the changing of scenes in a LD just a skill of making a choice and some thought of what we want that choice to be.
The self that chooses in daily life the actions carried out by our bodies, the self that creates the LD scenes are both one and same and not separate. One of 2 issues intrigues me and that is that the self is the same in both instances but we like to think of us in daily life and another us in a LD.
Moving beyond the LD and meeting out true selves is a paradox, becoming "one" I don’t even know how to express the thoughts so my words are a little clumsy and this is the first time I have tried to put it all down.
I want to move beyond the dream and into what I call the void and see what I can find. I think that like a WILD LD entry it is easily possible to move outside the LD and seek a new awareness of self and keep exploring. I find that in some LD a Mandala image will form in the sky or some other place and I am dragged into this and have been so scared of the intensity that I leave the dream but that these forms of energy are a gateway that needs exploring.
Random thoughts and look forward to all your thoughts

Peter
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

User avatar
Peter
Posts: 1951
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: Proof of two identities and/or higher self.

Postby Peter » 29 Jun 2011 06:05

Karen Byrne
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12225166

Just had a read and interesting - thanks

Alien hand syndrome is discussed in the book "The Ego Tunnel" by Thomas Metzinger along with other interesting behaviours. Well worth a read.

Peter
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

rdubya
Posts: 175
Joined: 21 Jun 2011 21:15

Re: Proof of two identities and/or higher self.

Postby rdubya » 29 Jun 2011 17:17

have been so scared of the intensity that I leave the dream but that these forms of energy are a gateway that needs exploring.


Try to remember you can't be physically hurt and I say go in! Easy for me to say since though haha.

User avatar
Peter
Posts: 1951
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: Proof of two identities and/or higher self.

Postby Peter » 29 Jun 2011 21:00

I am about ready for the jump into the void - all systems go LOL
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

rdubya
Posts: 175
Joined: 21 Jun 2011 21:15

Re: Proof of two identities and/or higher self.

Postby rdubya » 29 Jun 2011 21:16

Please do keep us posted. I am almost certain there are realities outside of just the physical one. I mean heck, LD are a form of reality that exist within the physical one! I think LD could be a strong technique of reaching the realms that exist parallel to the physical. I don't think they are meant to be secluded from each other. I don't think they always have been secluded throughout human history, but as of now, we are. Unfortunately, until I experience otherwise, it remains a theory that I cannot act on.

User avatar
Peter
Posts: 1951
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: Proof of two identities and/or higher self.

Postby Peter » 29 Jun 2011 21:41

I will and I agree. LD starts with playing and basic contro like a kid learning and then little challanges appear. There is a point where I feel the challanges are set from outside rather than created from within or they become active at points like a game.
Open minded and we are either right or wrong and keen to find out

Peter
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

User avatar
Rebecca
Site Admin
Posts: 456
Joined: 24 Apr 2011 06:21
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Proof of two identities and/or higher self.

Postby Rebecca » 02 Jul 2011 02:04

Cool thread!

I come from Andre's perspective and I think it's fascinating the philosophical debate over WHERE the mind actually resides; whether it's a literal soul or a by-product of self-awareness, an illusory concept.

Understanding astral projection experiences can help us find out. However the big problem here is: until the evidence supports a true separation of mind and body in astral states, the most logical and probable explanation is that, like lucid dreams, these are internal phenomena.

So the current "truth".... is that the mind (eternal soul) is an illusion; and therefore free will is an illusion too, because our choices are just a sequence of response pre-programmed by our self-written laws (derived from past experiences). Unfortunately, the idea of having no free will is very unintuitive for most people, including me, and though the evidence suggests it I find it SO hard to accept this conclusion.

And that's one reason why using the human brain is no good for understand the human brain. :roll:

Anyway I am keen to explore this further....

Also interesting you mentioned Mandala images Peter, this seems to be associated with DMT experiences.
http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/dmt.html

I wonder if DMT plays a role in lucid dreaming? Evidence suggests it is made naturally in the human body.


Return to “General Lucid Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot] and 1 guest