Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

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Summerlander
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 03 Nov 2014 21:00

nesgirl wrote:It is not too funny if say for example the drunk kills a younger child within your family or your one of your other family member's children. You'd be really angry at the drunk then


Well, it's not funny period. I think I would be equally inclined to see red regardless of whether the killer was drunk and unintentionally caused the death of a child or sober and deliberately committing homicide. But it is also important to make a differentiation between responsible drinking and alcoholism. The focus should be more on individuals, their idiosyncrasies, and lifestyles than the mind-altering substances which have diverse effects depending on the imbiber. If an individual has a proclivity for aggression under the influence of alcohol then teetotalism is most prudent. If alcohol makes another individual more cordial and therefore more sociable, then it can be said that the substance agrees well with this drinker. In a similar vein, one can expect a bad outcome from a teenager who irresponsibly mixes MDMA, cocaine and Vodka - but this doesn't mean that scientists automatically lose their right to test the effects of MDMA in the human body under controlled conditions.

nesgirl wrote:Yes, but let me ask you, who does Iraq hate more at this point, Europe or America? Also, I doubt they are going to attack Europe if they have a huge defense. My opinion at this point if I think Iraq is going to go after any country that shows sign of any weakness or has a disaster fall on them to the point where they can't fight back.


The enemy is not Iraq as a nation. The Iraqi government desperately wants Britain and the USA to fix their problems and fight their war for them because they have simply failed running their country. How did they manage to accomplish this? Well, to keep a long story short, by favouring some religious factions over others. Shiites over Sunnis for example (which caused many Sunnis to join ISIS as they think this is some opportunity for revenge). The government failed to establish an egalitarian, democratic system. Jihadists merely stoked the conflict and the resulting chaos was the catalyst they needed to begin their Islamic imperialism. But we shouldn't forget Kurdistan, which is allied to the West and continuously fights the main threat! If we don't send our troops there, the Kurds are our only hope. The Islamic State, as you can see, is the problem. Not Iraq. The Syrian situation was where foreign policy failed the US government. At the onset of the Syrian civil war, Americans could have joined forces with the secular side of the Syrian army in order to depose the genocidal President Assad. Instead, Obama decided to try to preserve his reputation as an American president who did not engage in war. This is costing him (and the American public) now as he does not have enough support on Syrian ground.

By the way, there are other ways in which Islam could take over Europe. In fact, Islamists are already insidiously doing it with their mosques and so-called liberalism! They are taking advantage of our multiculturalism. If you can get your hands on "While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West From Within" by Bruce Bawer, you'll see how.

deschainXIX wrote:Lol. I enjoyed reading that. Such creatures of passion, the religious are.


LOL! Tell me about it. They just don't see the sadomasochistic relationship they have with their imaginary Father. They don't see how ignoble it is to join Islam, or adhere to it, out of fear (of hell) and the desire to reach heaven. The Hitch's voice still echoes in my mind: "Created sick... ordered to be well!" :twisted:

deschainXIX wrote:It's a fun mental exercise, planning murders.


That's why me and my wife love the Jigsaw character so much. This song makes a lot of sense to me: :mrgreen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUGbu6Jcrmw

deschainXIX wrote:Nesgirl's fears remind me of something amusing my brother ruminated about the other day. He wondered why ISIS doesn't go to Africa and "get their hands on some ebola." He thought if they did that, they could bring America to its knees. Needless to say, ebola is nowhere near some kind of doomsday-disease. It's actually an extremely inefficient organism. The only reason it's such a big problem in Africa is because Africa lacks both good public cleanliness and strong centralized government to handle epidemics. Ebola is only spread via bodily fluid exchange, and it kills its host so quickly the host doesn't have any time to spread the contagion.


Now I'm learning something. I won't be surprised if we bury Ebola like we did with small pox. I think ISIS is planning to extend their Islamic empire as far a Northern Africa anyway. In fact, the restoration of the old Caliphate will include Europe too. :shock:

deschainXIX wrote:I just thought that was funny. People get rather paranoid about Middle Eastern affairs sometimes. It's definitely one of the greatest problems in our modern world, but many people are concerned for the wrong reasons.


Yes. And conspiracy theories about the American government don't help either. Watch how Hitchens deals with a "truther": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNAaDKZ-SuE :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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deschainXIX
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 04 Nov 2014 00:05

Summerlander wrote:LOL! Tell me about it. They just don't see the sadomasochistic relationship they have with their imaginary Father. They don't see how ignoble it is to join Islam, or adhere to it, out of fear (of hell) and the desire to reach heaven. The Hitch's voice still echoes in my mind: "Created sick... ordered to be well!"


Yeah. I know that I for one could never enjoy the pleasure and luxuries of heaven whilst knowing that the vast majority of all the humans who ever walked the earth were burning in the most unimaginable agony for eternity--and for no real reason. I actually get very angry when some religious figure says that they are happy so-and-so is burning forever in hell. They don’t seem to realize that absolutely no one deserves such a punishment (or ANY punishment at all, if we’re adhering to Sam Harris morality). If I were permitted into heaven, I would say, “Screw you, God, I’m going to be with the rest of my species, because that’s who I’d rather spend eternity with.” (But, of course, the idea of it all is totally absurd anyway, so I’m not making a real suggestion here lol. Nobody get pissed off.)

Summerlander wrote:That's why me and my wife love the Jigsaw character so much. This song makes a lot of sense to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUGbu6Jcrmw


I totally get it too; and everyone else does too, however much they don't like to admit it. But not only that, but there's a psychologically-revealing message to be seen here, I think. I like people who are willing to admit that we humans thrive on chaos and morbidity and horror and all those sorts of things. I think it's a natural survival mechanism that arose evolutionarily.
"Horror is the removal of masks." --Robert Bloch

Summerlander wrote:ow I'm learning something. I won't be surprised if we bury Ebola like we did with small pox. I think ISIS is planning to extend their Islamic empire as far a Northern Africa anyway. In fact, the restoration of the old Caliphate will include Europe too.


I don’t know. Ebola has been a mystery to us for a long time. But medicine is definitely gaining a higher and higher quality, and I reckon we’ll lick it soon enough.

Summerlander wrote:Yes. And conspiracy theories about the American government don't help either. Watch how Hitchens deals with a "truther": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNAaDKZ-SuE


“I have no time to waste on people like you.” :lol: I love Hitch and his slaps. The amount of times I think those very words on a daily basis in incalculable.
Well said.

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deschainXIX
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 04 Nov 2014 00:32

Summerlander wrote:By the way, there are other ways in which Islam could take over Europe. In fact, Islamists are already insidiously doing it with their mosques and so-called liberalism! They are taking advantage of our multiculturalism. If you can get your hands on "While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West From Within" by Bruce Bawer, you'll see how.


More evidence that it is a war of bad, dangerous, and contagious ideals.

nesgirl wrote:This happened once before, during WW2, remember? I am thinking we may very well be on the grounds of WW3. Remember how when WW2 was going on, America just sat on the sidelines until Japan got involved? And even then, they mostly fought against Japan. I am wondering if the same thing is going to happen. Except this time, if the Islamic state happens to conquer enough countries, and a natural disaster hits America, they may try to conquer an area in America (power and greed corrupt), and won't hesitate to send their soldiers to attack the area while they are injured so they can conquer the area, which is a very low move, but then again, what do you expect?


It's true that America may sit idle as per World War II, but I'm not entirely sure if the Islamic state would be powerful enough to topple it. I don't know.
Well said.

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Summerlander
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 04 Nov 2014 02:17

Indeed how can one enjoy eternal bliss knowing that sentient beings endure the worst hell imaginable... an eternal one! What a sadist. And great quote by Robert Bloch. It is true that many of us were shaken and angered by 9/11. But I can't help but think about a deeper, sinister sensation that many of us also felt despite empathising with the victims and their families. Part of us savoured the moment, part of us was glad and feeling privileged at the chance of witnessing such atrocity...

And yet, we hate the perpetrators. The men who thought they were doing God's work...

About WWII, America did eventually help Europe against the Nazis. Let's not forget General Patten and his army. America had a lot to deal with and they had to swiftly put an end to Japanese imperialism as it was closer to home. Japan attacked America directly, remember? (Pearl Harbour.)

Anyway, ISIS does not have the potential to defeat or conquer the USA. The latter, let's not forget, is a superpower protected by two massive bodies of water. (And Canada won't hesitate to back it up.)

This ensueing cold war where America, Europe, and Russia are concerned has more potential to get worse that perhaps a Third War could break out. Who knows! Vladimir Putin is certainly a war criminal using KGB tactics to expand his empire. Russians have regressed to something like the Czarist regime.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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deschainXIX
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 04 Nov 2014 02:40

nesgirl wrote:And there is absolutely no afterlife I have heard of that can compare to the sense of freedom you get within a Multimedia project or Lucid Dream. Personally I don't care what kind of Lucid Dream I have, whether someone says it breaks the rules to have in real life (like with the EEG), or even if it is a probability Lucid Dream, I just have them and enjoy having them. It is my time away from reality.


This reminds me of the movie "Vanilla Sky." Basically the idea was that we may progress to the scientific and technological level on which we could suspend a dead person's mind in indefinite cryostasis and feed the subject various electronic stimulation so as to put the subject in a perpetual lucid dream. So the idea is that very wealthy people can buy themselves an eternal afterlife via cryostasis and artificial brain stimulation.
Living forever in a world of your own hypnagogic phantasms. Sounds nice to me (except in the movie, something went wrong with the protagonist's mind and he began living in a perpetual nightmare rather than a perpetual lucid dream).
I think it's scientifically viable. Particularly since there was an scientific article published recently about current breakthroughs in cryostatic technologies. I forget where I saw it though.
Great movie. Except you probably wouldn't be able to enjoy it, nesgirl, because many of its themes deal with sexuality.

Summerlander wrote:Indeed how can one enjoy eternal bliss knowing that sentient beings endure the worst hell imaginable... an eternal one! What a sadist. And great quote by Robert Bloch. It is true that many of us were shaken and angered by 9/11. But I can't help but think about a deeper, sinister sensation that many of us also felt despite empathising with the victims and their families. Part of us savoured the moment, part of us was glad and feeling privileged at the chance of witnessing such atrocity...

And yet, we hate the perpetrators. The men who thought they were doing God's work...

About WWII, America did eventually help Europe against the Nazis. Let's not forget General Patten and his army. America had a lot to deal with and they had to swiftly put an end to Japanese imperialism as it was closer to home. Japan attacked America directly, remember? (Pearl Harbour.)

Anyway, ISIS does not have the potential to defeat or conquer the USA. The latter, let's not forget, is a superpower protected by two massive bodies of water. (And Canada won't hesitate to back it up.)

This ensueing cold war where America, Europe, and Russia are concerned has more potential to get worse that perhaps a Third War could break out. Who knows! Vladimir Putin is certainly a war criminal using KGB tactics to expand his empire. Russians have regressed to something like the Czarist regime.


Very true. America didn't stand by in apathy any more than any of the other great superpowers of the time. Basically all the powerful "good guys" kept feeding Hitler appeasements to get him to stop his expansion. They felt guilty about the events of WWI. Until he hit Poland. Only then did we step in. And America didn't step in until Japan attacked. America did play a pivotal role in Europe, however I think they're given more credit for their actions in the Pacific because they left the actual storming of Germany mostly to other European and Asian powers.
(Fun fact: The United States of America actually technically attacked Japan first. They sunk a miniature Japanese submarine which was swimming near the coasts, preceding the events of Pearl Harbor.)
Well said.

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Summerlander
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 04 Nov 2014 03:27

Vanilla Sky was an awesome film. I also recommend Oblivion. What a twist. That was weird! Indeed America were rascals too, btw.

By no means am I saying the United States is a perfect and innocent nation. But I would definitely say that today they are the lesser of evils such as Russia and the Islamic State. My mother is from Angola and during the cold war the superpowers of the world had their eye on it because it is rich. When the civil war broke out, my mother fled to Portugal.

Agostinho Neto, the man who would eventually become the first Angolan president, had travelled to Washington and asked the Kennedy administration to help him fight against the Portuguese colonialists there. Kennedy refused because colonialism was lucrative for America in Africa.

So Neto turned to Castro in Havana. When Angola got their independence, and the nationalist parties battled for power, it was the Cubans who helped Neto's MPLA party to establish a Marxist-Leninist government. Cubans also defeated the South African armies who were supported by Americans. Nobody wanted the aparteid and America was clearly on the wrong side here. But America, with the CIA and an Angolan natinalist party (UNITA) led by Maoist warrior Jonas Savimbi, caused the longest internecine battle to ensue in the Cold War. They fought the MPLA, FNLA, and the Cubans. The MPLA dealt with all of them. They even prevented a coup in the 70s by fractionists, a group that favoured Soviet communism over Neto's socialism.

America was a real menace at that time. But so were the communists. I have a link about this guys, I even met two men who worked for Savimbi but had to run from UNITA when they were suspected of treason. One of them, Puna, went on to become ambassador of Angola to Canada.

If you guys are interested in this I will provide a link that documents this history and part of my life. (I'll look for it.)

By the way, Islam is banned in Angola.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 04 Nov 2014 15:37

nesgirl wrote:If you guys are interested in this I will provide a link that documents this history and part of my life. (I'll look for it.)


Sure, I'd read about it.

nesgirl wrote:It was bad on the Africans in America because they had some very serious racism issues in that country. Did you know they actually had a civil war in America, and it was all because they were treating the Africans really terribly. Even after the civil war, the racism in that country wouldn't stop. It took a man named Martin Luther King Jr, who was a man of ideals very much like I am a female of ideals to stand up to them and tell them what they were doing was wrong, and lecture them on how to treat others of different origins better. However it took a lot longer to for them to learn to treat females better. Females were treated as house servants for the longest time. And even when there was a female who stood up to them named Susan B Anthony, demanding rights and even breaking the law by voting, she was sent to prison for it. It took a lot longer for females to actually gain enough equality so they weren't treated like house servants and were proper citizens. Still females do struggle for complete equality, and you can see why it is a sensitive subject for many citizens of that gender. This is one of the reasons also why some females are very distrustful of partnerships, because there are still struggles for equality, and some fear servitude like there was back in the old days, and truly want to be treated as an equal citizen.


MLK was successful and is so commended today because he employed passive resistance--many say he owes a great amount of debt to Ghandi. He was a pacifist and constantly encouraged white and black anti-segregationists to fight with words and passion as opposed to violence. If they resorted to violence, he said, they were no better than the racists who enforced mindless police brutality upon the innocents.

America is still remarkably behind everyone else as far as gender equality. It's mostly all in the Deep South, though, where there is still a great deal of social lag. Lot of Bible-thumpers down there. I don't, however, think that there is any "servitude" going on anymore. Absolutely no one I know thinks women are any lesser than men or should be subjugated beneath men. One thing that annoys me to no end is the feminist claim that we need to "empower" women. This is not only a fallacy but also a claim of vast misogyny--it is essentially saying that women need empowerment from us men or else they are useless and unable to help themselves.
Nevertheless, religion plays a HUGE hand in what lingering gender inequality there is in the Western world. In fact, one could say that all misogyny and subjugation of women is ultimately derived from religion.
Well said.

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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 04 Nov 2014 18:58

@ nesgirl:

It took a man named Martin Luther King Jr, who was a man of ideals


It didn't just take Martin Luther King. Way before this civil rights leader, Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson had already tried to abolish slavery in 1787 when the Constitution of the United States was established. This was overruled by Congress on the basis that slavery was lucrative. Paine was very much for equality, pointing out that Americans were fighting for freedom from British rule and yet hypocritically enslaved human beings from Africa. This political pamphleteer's literature would influence Abraham Lincoln eighty years later to make emancipation official. (Especially the book, "The Rights of Man.")

But granted that even Lincoln wasn't quite there. Some of the things he said back then were ahead of his time but today would still be construed as racist. He'd say things like, "By no means am I saying that blacks are on the same level as whites, but... their manumission needs to be ratified by all..." (paraphrasing). Sure, it would sound appalling today but he needed to be subtle at the time and it was a small step in the right direction. Many men after him, and before King, set the machine that would provide the stage for people like your unorthodox religious minister in motion. All of them deserve credit as it was a gradual process against the enemy, and, if not for the preceding pressure from abolitionists, King wouldn't have got his chance to speak out and have his dream partly fulfilled. Racism still exists today, of course, but, believe it or not, it is not as ubiquitous or as blatant as it used to be. By the way, it is worth remembering that both Lincoln and King were assassinated. On the subject of equal rights regarding women, I'm all for it! In England we have a queen and she gets away with too much. Time to give her a minimum wage so she knows what it's like to not be a Royal... :mrgreen:

Oh wow, I didn't realize you had to live through a war as a child. That is something no one should have to go through as a kid. Now I feel guilty for not understanding your situation.


Don't feel guilty. It was my mother who did and she had to get away from it. She was pregnant with my oldest sister when she emigrated. I was born four years later in Portugal while the civil war raged on in Angola. The political events at the time did affect our way of life though. Children of the Angolan
civil war would ask me what side I was on and my father was a degenerate gambler who belted my mother on a daily basis (thank goodness she eventually divorced him). My father subscribed to the jingoistic doctrine of Lusotropicalism (states that Portuguese men are superior to everyone else as colonisers) and therefore, in his mind, a real man would have to ensure absolute control over his woman. He grew up during Salazar's rule - he was a Portuguese dictator during the colonial era.

@ deschainXIX:

Sure, I'd read about it.


Okay. It's part of the Cold War with the addition of some childhood events and how politics impacted upon my family. I hope it's interesting enough. As you will see, America interfered, the CIA made a mess, and then they abandoned their allies like they did in the Bay of Pigs fiasco. The Cubans did something good there. They prevented the spread of apartheid in Africa. Enjoy:

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14787

MLK was successful and is so commended today because he employed passive resistance--many say he owes a great amount of debt to Ghandi. He was a pacifist and constantly encouraged white and black anti-segregationists to fight with words and passion as opposed to violence. If they resorted to violence, he said, they were no better than the racists who enforced mindless police brutality upon the innocents.


I would criticise Gandhi on two points: he abhorred technology and encouraged people to live in poverty. It was also irresponsible of him to adopt extreme asceticism knowing how influential he was during those turbulent times in India. Gandhi was stultifying the development of his country. In saying this, by no means do I condone what the nationalists did to him. Also, his pacifism would not have worked with the Nazis and he knew it. If Jews had adopted his pacifism, Hitler's job would certainly have been made easier.

In fact, one could say that all misogyny and subjugation of women is ultimately derived from religion.


Religion certainly promoted and encouraged such behaviour besides rape and murder. And it also prescribed slavery, racism, tribalism, and other forms of discrimination. And it never corrects itself. It takes an enlightened person to say, "This doesn't work and it's not right" followed by a major effort to encourage reform. finally, and rather tardily, religious leaders such as the Pope concede. "Yeah, perhaps the Lord's word was applicable only to that epoch, we need to work on a new exegesis..." :roll:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Worldenterer1 » 05 Nov 2014 01:10

Summerlander wrote:Vladimir Putin is certainly a war criminal using KGB tactics to expand his empire. Russians have regressed to something like the Czarist regime.

Hey Summerlander, could you explain what makes you think this? Just curious, because I've heard a lot of people say that Putin is one of the last people trying to prevent the US and EU from having a complete monopoly over certain resources like oil or the petrodollar for example. Of course, the media lies, and everyone has their own opinion, so it's tricky to know if what I've heard is reliable or not. But I just try to gather as much info on a topic as I possibly can by asking as many people as I can. ;)
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 05 Nov 2014 01:38

@Summerlander

Wow, that was a truly expansive piece. You know a lot about political history! :) I totally agree with your conclusion, as well, by the way.

I also agree about the criticisms of Ghandi--I think I read about them in "The End of Faith." Harris briefly highlighted them, to refute people who pointed to MLK and Ghandi as examples of religion having a glorious, progressive hand behind history as well as an ugly, regressive one.


@nesgirl

The statement “most jobs won’t hire females because they’re overweight” is totally incorrect. There are, however, social conventions and expectations that make women prefer to be on the slimmer side. But that’s just something that arises naturally in a biological organism--it has nothing to do with political misogyny. In fact, one could say that there is an ever greater expectation for males to beef up and have hard-cut muscle--such a physique is far more difficult to accomplish than losing a few pounds. It’s simple human nature to desire a mate with an attractive physical appearance. Since we are sexual creatures, we tend to like people who are more attractive. It may be a nasty truth, but it’s still a truth, and it has nothing to do with gender inequality.

And also, I guarantee you that no respectable business or otherwise is going to hire someone solely on the basis of their gender. Such things simply do not exist anymore. If you have a woman come in who presents herself well and has plenty of education, and you also have a man come in dressed like a skater who doesn’t even have a diploma, who are they going to hire? The woman, of course.

Hillary Clinton has ran for presidency before. No one stopped her from running. She had no setbacks that the other candidates didn’t have. Of course, there were those fundy Christians who probably abhorred the idea of a woman leading the country--but that’s what I’ve been saying. Most of the gender inequality still around is practiced and purported by religious freaks.
Well said.


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