Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

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buildit
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby buildit » 19 Oct 2014 00:25

Summerlander wrote:You see? You've misunderstood me again. It doesn't matter what the individual organism thinks or feels. It all starts with unconscious genetic units. It starts with the "selfish" gene. Genes have phenotypic effects on bodies. DNA replicates itself while bodies, in general, don't. Genes have the potential to be immortal and survive for many generations. Bodies have short lives as they are just vessels. The suicidal person who risks his life to save that of a younger relative is in actual fact aiding the survival of the genes they share. The suicidal person's genes "live" inside the younger relative. The suicidal person is not thinking about saving genes, of course, but he is thinking about saving a loved one. On the surface, by sacrificing himself, his actions are altruistic. At the level of the gene, they are selfish. I hope you get it know. These are not opinions, nesgirl, they are scientific facts and have been mentioned in books like "The Selfish Gene," "The Blind Watchmaker" and "The extended Phenotype."


This is a very convoluted argument. However, from this string of logic the dodo bird went extinct so that other birds would be able to live as humans, cats and rats invaded their habitat. :roll: Truth is that there are way more external influences upon life forcing it to adapt and evolve. Even sharks which have remained very similar to their ancestors 1 million years ago have adapted, diversified and evolved.
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Summerlander
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 19 Oct 2014 00:50

Nesgirl, how you got the impression that me and deschain would rather watch a family die for the sake of genes from what I previously said is beyond me. I merely spoke of the consequences of certain actions by individuals and how these impact on the survival of genes. Like I said before, they are not opinions, just facts. Cause and effect.

Buildit, as I was trying to explain to nesgirl, the suicidal person would not do it for the sake of saving genes. He would do it out of love for the relative in all likelihood.

In the same vein, birds that went extinct didn't consciously will their evolutionary suicide for the sake of saving other species even if that was the outcome of their extinction. Evolution does not have specific goals. There is no room for entelechy here. There are biological as well as environmental pressures leading to change. Natural selection is like a blind watchmaker, to put it poetically as Dawkins did. There is no intelligent designer leading the way. The majority of all the species that have ever walked (or flew or swam) the Earth have gone extinct. In 4 billion years 99% went extinct. There is no purpose there. There is no extinction with the conscious goal of aiding the extancy of other species. Things happen willy-nilly.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Summerlander
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 19 Oct 2014 01:30

Well, you are not exactly helping yourself (genes) evolutionarily speaking. Your siblings may propagate some of the genes that you share with them if they, unlike you, lead sexual lives, and the minimum you can do is ensure that they live long enough to procreate. But if you and your siblings are asexual, yes, this is genetic suicide. Your uncles and aunts are more distant and there are less chances of the genetic propagation that is inherent in you.

Now, I can also say, without any shame, that I don't care about some family members of mine. My father was a wife-beater and I'm pretty sure he is still a degenerate gambler today. He is a waste of space so why should I care about him? (Especially when he makes no efforts to apologise, shows no remorse, and does not care about his grandchildren.)

My mother raised me and I love her dearly. I care about her wellbeing. Despite being a Catholic, she respects me as an atheist and she cares about the family unit. I don't have to agree with her on every point in order to love her. She is also free to believe in God and an afterlife. It isn't a crime.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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buildit
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby buildit » 19 Oct 2014 02:12

Summerlander wrote:There is no purpose there. There is no extinction with the conscious goal of aiding the extancy of other species. Things happen willy-nilly.

Okay so it was a hypothetical evaluation, not a literal analysis of the situation.

Genetics themselves are funny. As humans we are against the analysis of what matches would produce the best genetics in our children, too much like Hitler I guess. Yet, humans have played genetic match maker for dogs, cows, horses, pigs, deer, trout, bass, frogs, salmon, cats, birds.......... No one got the whillies when we made seedless bananas or grapes. :roll: So at some level Nesgrl is right about the possibility of a more platonic and less sex driven society. Sex, lust or whatever you want to view it as is not a necessity for human survival and as a race we might evolve into a less endorphin driven society anyways.
This is not to say relationships, companionship, even intimacy has no redeeming qualities. It is well documented that these interactions reduce stress and build confidence allowing for better health and longer life spans.

That's my $.02. :D
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby buildit » 19 Oct 2014 03:02

Just an FYI, you do know that most people view cloning as bad due to a lot of bad history and press. It would take many years and a lot of successfully cloned organs to change public opinion of cloning.
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby buildit » 19 Oct 2014 03:56

nesgirl wrote:
buildit wrote:Just an FYI, you do know that most people view cloning as bad due to a lot of bad history and press. It would take many years and a lot of successfully cloned organs to change public opinion of cloning.

Then we will have to do research and do whatever we can to perfect cloning. Cloning is so much better than the alternative, because cloning is so much cleaner and less invasive. Cloning you can keep your personal space while it is happening, and you can just stay as platonic friends with the other.


Hugh? No, cloning still requires a human womb. Sorry females still needed as incubators.
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deschainXIX
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 19 Oct 2014 04:02

:lol: That's the other thing I really, really don't understand about this entire fiasco of a bad idea.

So, let's say that somehow on God's green earth you manage to convince the vast majority of human beings that altering their most primal and defining attributes into asexual, anti-romance, anti-love, isolationist prudishness is the best way to create a productive, secure society for the human race and for all the sub-sentient species of earth. Let's say that you manage to establish your fascist regime of unsocial stiff-spines, in which perfectly moral, sane nymphomaniacs are either murdered at birth or forced to live in hiding from the platoons of police-dogs hunting them down. Let’s say that people are invariably prohibited from procreation or kisses or any sexual contact of any kind or even any physical contact at all--and you will ensure this … how exactly? Death penalty? Banishment (what, are we in the Dark Ages :lol: )? Doesn’t matter.

Let’s say you somehow pull all of this off. So …

Why, why, why, do you think that cloning is the best way to ensure the survival and proliferation of the species?! For some incomprehensible reason you keep talking about nothing, absolutely nothing, but cloning! Why?
You do understand that, through the extremely unsustainable method of cloning, you are creating a continuation of offspring with identical DNA? IDENTICAL DNA. Do I need to say that again? IDENTICAL DNA. So, with my miniscule little regressive mind (because, you know ... I am, by nature, a raping, psychotic sexual deviant), I am trying to comprehend: Why cloning? It’s not that you even are considering any other means of continuing your master “Aryan” race--you only talk about cloning.
There are literally so many ways to artificially produce offspring. Especially since in your little fantasy society, you consistently say that you're so gloriously “scientifically and medically advanced.” So why not just have "Biological Production Houses" where they have sets of artificially-grown human reproductive organs inside machines, constantly pumping out babies into artificial uterus chambers?
So I guess your idea, with all the cloning, is to artificially create a genotype in which all feelings of romance and sexuality are nonexistent, and then use this genotype as the basic blueprints and preset for all human beings afterward? Even with this method, it is an absolutely terrible idea. In one mind-blowing display of foolishness, you eliminate any room for improvement in genes through natural selection.
All ethical problems with cloning aside (clearly we're beyond--or perhaps before--the territory of 21st century morality or ethics), cloning is certainly not the best means of approaching the problems resulting from you defying your true, evolutionary nature.
Well said.

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buildit
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby buildit » 19 Oct 2014 05:27

nesgirl wrote:Actually with cloning, we will eventually be able to improve genes in the future. And get rid of the negative genes that I possess inside of me. And if I clone, I won't have to touch or go near anyone. I don't need to deal with negative relationships, ever, or to ever have my space invaded. This makes it so that I can keep living an isolated life.


That would be great and I look forward to when gene therapy can solve genetic diseases and heal viruses forever. But it's not here yet. So for the moment you can freeze your eggs to be fertilized from a sperm bank should you want a little NESchild. ;)
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Summerlander
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 19 Oct 2014 13:00

buildit wrote:Genetics themselves are funny. As humans we are against the analysis of what matches would produce the best genetics in our children, too much like Hitler I guess.


Cross-breeding humans can be an excellent idea. Why force a child to play an instrument when we could create one already inclined to do that, right? In fact, why not improve the mediocrity that nature has come up with (another argument against intelligent design right here)! Scientists can already see that, in principle, superhuman geniuses can be created. Imagine knowing enough about genetic engineering to the point of conceiving a person who excels at everything... :!:

Hitler might have been right in suggesting selective breeding for humans but he was wrong and twisted about the eugenics involved. First of all, even his so called Aryan race was not pure. There is no such thing as a pure race even if appearances can be misleading. Also, a pure race does not necessarily equate with superiority. In fact, history has taught us that sometimes the opposite is quite true, eg. the Tasmanians who were quite pure but were primitive and drove themselves to extinction contrasted with the Ancient Greeks who were mixed but quite advanced and exerting hegemony.

Hitler was simply and despicably wrong. What's more, he used The Protocols of the Elders of Zion canard counterfeited by the Russian Orthodox Church in order to turn Germans against Jewry. In Mein Kampf he highlights the reasons for the pogrom of Jews, claiming that the Lord wants it to happen. His reasons for persecuting Jews were more political and religious than scientific. And contrary to popular belief, he was not an atheist. He believed he was sent by Providence (sometimes referring to this higher power as "God").

nesgirl wrote:Then there's my other uncle, who got arrested for doing terrible things to a child. Although my father has a heart for him, I literally cannot stand him, because to me, what he did to me was unforgivable. One time he went to a family gathering, and many woman were gathering around the children (myself included) and were overprotecting them from him, and I was actually ready to deck him if he tried to hurt him.


I am sorry you were the victim of a sexual predator. That shouldn't have happened. But just know that you can always move on and lead a happy life. He is not worth your time and effort. I would also urge you to consider that not all sexual people are of the same calibre.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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deschainXIX
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 19 Oct 2014 13:09

Yes. It's amusing when religious people use Hitler and Nazism as an example of atheism being the very definition of anarchy and evil and immorality. Even when putting all of the obvious proof of Hitler's religious motives aside, it is easy to say that Hitler was not exactly a giant of Reason. All of his ideas were built around pure dogma--eg, all Jews are terrible creatures and must be exterminated, no questions asked. That's why I call myself an anti-dogmatist as well as an atheist. Unquestionable, universal principles are dangerous!
Well said.


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