Does the Soul Exist?

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Is there a soul?

Humans have souls, but animals and other living things do not
1
6%
Both animals and humans have souls
6
38%
The soul does not exist
6
38%
Other
3
19%
 
Total votes: 16

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deschainXIX
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby deschainXIX » 25 Nov 2014 00:06

I wrote up a post refuting every sentence nesgirl said in reply to me. But what's the point? She will not take a step back. I do, however, wish to say a few things for all other parties present.

I was not speaking of mental disorder (as all thinking persons knew when they read my thoughts). I was speaking of the true and honest feelings and incomprehensible thoughts one is overcome by when one opens a door and sees nothing behind it but infinity and emptiness. Realizing everything is nothing, that your existence is an illusion, that whatever you are now will cease to be and the world will forget you and everything and everyone you ever knew will cease to exist and forget one another and forget they ever even knew one another. I was speaking of fundamental, psychological paradigm shifts towards something more realistic from an earlier age, which subsequently would trump all of this horror before it could infect someone. Mental disorder, however, is a quantitative neurological dysfunction.

@Summerlander
Indeed--"Why me?" What a tremendously stupid question. Lol.
Well said.

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 25 Nov 2014 02:19

Lol! Buildit, I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion but if you must know, Dennett was talking about the discontinuous nature of consciousness seeming continuous, and referring to perceptual deficits such as the blind spot. The brain will not register the blind spot as a black hole as this would still constitute a percept based on visual input from that area. The case is that there is none, no visual data, so you just don't see it, i.e. you are not aware of the blind spot until you follow the instructions for the appropriate optical illusion that will expose it. (Check out the one where you see a black dot disappear when you know something should be there - all you see is a continuation of the white background of the page or screen.)

Now re-read Dennett's quote above and it should make more sense to you. :-D

This is a perfect example of someone desperately wanting to be right without evidence. Consciousness, as I said before, is a puzzle waiting to be solved. Dennett's multiple drafts theory is a good candidate and can include even conditions such as multiple personality disorder (several selves in one body) whereas the fallacious Cartesian Theatre can only contend with one and doesn't even begin to explain it. Dualism is simply false.

And nesgirl, maybe the advice is to be careful what you wish for because you might not get it. Some people will never respect you so simply move on. As Scott Adams would say to you, they are not worth it, just noisy furniture, so avoid them. Or their noise (insults) could alternatively become music to your ears. The healthy mind, and I speak for myself here, has this capacity. It can colour its heterophenomenological world to the self's liking. But not many know this and linger on the dogma that intended insults will always be negatively meaningful and affect them therein.

@deschain: Hitchens so it coming a mile away! ;-)

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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R99
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby R99 » 25 Nov 2014 06:35

nesgirl wrote:and I am a negative person anyways


U r saying it as not big deal, Y so negativity??? Negative thinking always lead to self destruction both mentally an physically. at least try to overcome this attitude. :?
"A curious mind cannot be afraid of Unknown. It searches for the answers untill the end of time."

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HAGART
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby HAGART » 25 Nov 2014 07:44

"The soul is as the soul does."

I rearranged a few words from the famous, 'Forrest Gump Quote'.

What does it even mean, "Stupid is as stupid does?" I have no friggen' idea! We'd be better off explaining that line from the movie than trying to explain a soul! Nobody knows, not even Tom Hanks!

Drops the Mic!
(and walks away)..........
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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deschainXIX
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby deschainXIX » 25 Nov 2014 12:35

Realism is often misinterpreted as pessimism. A wholly wrong position. Being conscious of the fact that a vastitude of humanity currently suffers in sub-developed countries, dying of malformation and disease and even at each other's own hands. Thinking about these sorts of things does not make you pessimistic or negative. It simply means you don't regularly wrap yourself in the electric blankets of denial and ignorance in order to stay warm. You're willing to join the rest of humanity out there in the cold, not giving yourself the luxury of not thinking about them.

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Well said.

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 25 Nov 2014 12:46

"Whatever happens, where or when, we're prone to wonder who or what's responsible. This leads us to discover explanations that we might not otherwise imagine, and that help us predict and control not only what happens in the world, but also what happens in our minds. But what if those same tendencies should lead us to imagine things and causes that do not exist? Then we'll invent false gods and superstitions and see their hand in every chance coincidence. Indeed, perhaps that strange word "I" - as used in "I just had a good idea" - reflects the selfsame tendency. If you're compelled to find some cause that causes everything you do - why, then, that something needs a name. You call it "me." I call it 'you.'"

- Marvin Minsky

"For my part, when I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other, or heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure. I never can catch 'myself' at any time without a perception, and never can observe anything but the perception... If anyone, upon serious and unprejudiced reflection, thinks he has a different notion of 'himself,' I must confess I can reason no longer with him. All I can allow him is, that he may be in the right as well as I, and that we are essentially different in this particular. He may, perhaps, perceive something simple and continued, which he calls 'himself'; though I am certain there is no such principle in me."

- David Hume

I find these quotes quite powerful and quite telling. If the blindspot is in the way of the dark spot on a sheet of paper, there is no perception of the dark spot and no perception of the absence of information either (no dark blotch indicating the blindspot). You simply don't feel like there is a blindspot. No sensory input equals no perception and thus no consciousness of what might be there externally. The self is, thus, a user illusion begotten by a complex organ such as the brain, which, is complex enough in higher order intentionalities, allows the organism to recognise itself in the mirror, to be self-aware. Why shouldn't it if it can equally react to the perception of objects in the external world. Given the power of language, and feeling the need to label everything it perceives, why shouldn't the organism be able to report to itself, "This is my hand," or "There is another individual in front of me with hands similar to mine." Even further, "The mirror is a reflective surface," "I can see myself, I know what my face looks like."

If the brain dies, the powers of perception - which constitute the self - logically die with it. So far neuroscience has amassed a body of evidence, highlighting how every aspect of the mind can be expunged via cerebral dysfunction. It even shows us that people can lose memory or become delusional. Other conditions appear to show us that a single body can generate several fragmentary personalities. Even ordinary dreaming indicates that diminished brain activity in the relevant areas can render us somewhat mentally retarded and gullible during REM phase. Even the fluctuating lucid dream state isn't impervious to bizarre thinking as pointed out by Alan Worsley (see the dream science forum).

We get nothing from those who claim to be certain that dualism is true. Not a shred of convincing evidence. And you wonder why we are inclined to think that there is no afterlife?

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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R99
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby R99 » 26 Nov 2014 06:11

nesgirl wrote:First of all I have mostly negative mood swings, which cause me to be negative most of the time. Second of all, I view reality as a very negative place. I don't see hardly anything in reality that is at all positive, and science makes reality even less of a likable place, and makes me hate nearly everything in reality the more science has more theories. There is absolutely no reason to be positive about anything in this reality.

And other than this guy's romantic views (although that's what usually happens in a partnership), and his hate on others (I just strongly distrust others), I so like his negative view on life. I like it when others can find all the negative reasons to hate reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfnAOcBirAs



Seriously???? nesgirl? its just a song to make some money. watch these for a change.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufQpgYSDRdU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT-HBl2TVtI

u just need a start. and if u want a good song better than Theory Of Dead Man. watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PivWY9wn5ps. Ignore it, if its too flashy for u.
"A curious mind cannot be afraid of Unknown. It searches for the answers untill the end of time."

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R99
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby R99 » 26 Nov 2014 07:21

First of all let me clear something up, "I dont believe in afterlife." But i believe in so called soul. most people want to call it as a "Soul", but i believe it as an Energy. a complicated life form that keep our body or any living thing functional. and ofcoz it cant be detected through our current science state we r. but it doesnt mean its not there. It is an energy and its also called as "Life Force" . and science already have a theory about energy, and it goes like this- "Energy can be neither created nor destroyed", if u put it simply.... And we all know its called "Law of conservation of Energy"

If Energy cant be created or destroyed, its gotta have a reservoir, that stores all of this energy ready to distributed through entire universe. a human body is organic machine. its need energy to run. and if u say food is our fuel. then i say its the oil to run it smoothly. see.. thats what i meant by it cant be detected by our current science. we make the current environment to enter an energy to a single cell through our mother's womb that contains ovum with the help of father's reproductive cell. and if its not healthy cells, then the energy cant be contained by that developing body and it dies. (in my terms body dies. energy exits from the body and return to universe's energy reservoir. and after it... thats what i always wanted to know.may be it enters another host or body or it becomes some other energy to fuel different kind of energy source. )

No matter what science says about brain function or how it dies, or there is no brain activity after death. there is gotta be something more to it. and thats what i wanted to know.

And if u want to see this life force or energy or soul what ever in action learn more about Qi energy, a traditional Chinese theory about life force. u can always multiply and use an energy if u know how to use it correctly. look around every moving or living thing is converting this energy to do a particular task.
"A curious mind cannot be afraid of Unknown. It searches for the answers untill the end of time."

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 26 Nov 2014 12:16

Any biologist will tell you that organic bodies need not some hypothetical elan vital to keep them functional. This living activity has been set in motion long ago when the chemicals and minerals from the primordial Earth stumbled upon molecular replicators which eventually lead to the peculiar DNA.

The mind is merely the software of the brain. This means that there is a physical complexity that can obviously beget conscious experiences. A theory of consciousness that has any explanatory power at all will have to posit and show how consciousness is generated by unconscious processes. In the same token, life has to ultimately come from non-living material processes.

It makes no sense to begin by saying that we are conscious because something lies outside physical reality and is beyond the scope of science. This sort of thinking, this fallacious presumption, is not helpful and poses obstacles in our quest to decipher the cerebral code. Such vitalistic fantasies will only discourage proper search. It's like saying, "Don't bother looking at neurons, human behaviour and psychology... don't bother looking at anything because there is this chi energy that cannot be detected by us, by the way, which is responsible for consciousness..."

To say there is a soul, as I said before, is like attempting to explain consciousness with consciousness. It is a non-explanation, a non-sequitur. It's aggravating or complicating the problem even further and giving up for the sake of perpetuating the mysticism that enshrines consciousness. And these questions will forever remain unanswered: "How is the soul conscious? How does chi give life? If they grossly manipulate physical bodies, why can't we detect them?"

I'm sorry, R99, but I do not see where you are coming from. You say you don't believe in an afterlife and yet you clearly posit an immortal conscious energy that survives physical death and goes on to reincarnate. This is dogma at odds with what has been demonstrated by neuroscience so far.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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R99
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby R99 » 26 Nov 2014 14:24

U said "so far". so there is more to discover....... it goes and on.. i cant prove it, unless i come up with proof. my search for knowledge is at its beginning. i am just pointing out my theories. its ur choice what to make up with it. 2 years ago i was christian, but now i am a human.
"A curious mind cannot be afraid of Unknown. It searches for the answers untill the end of time."


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