nesgirl and Summerlander

For all other chat which isn't directly related to lucid dreaming and the world of sleep and dreams.
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buildit
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby buildit » 31 Dec 2014 23:26

The amazing part is how someones sexual / asexual / aromatic life choice draws in the masses of conformists to tell them what they are doing wrong. :roll:
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Summerlander
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby Summerlander » 03 Jan 2015 02:07

So far I had the last say in that debate. I'm beginning to believe I've said something irrefutable.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

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Enra Traz
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby Enra Traz » 05 Jan 2015 03:50

Animals are not capable of suffering as much as humans. The ones that come closest in potential are our cousins, the apes. This is determined by biology. Scientific fact. Humans do deserve compassion and praise for also caring about what happens to lower, inferior species. And it is plain to see that sometimes some of us get disproportionally sentimental insofar as imagining that animals are like us goes. Animals do not have human minds and couldn't give a toss if a human cries. They care about the humans that feed them and help them to survive simply because those humans are a prolific source.

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buildit
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby buildit » 05 Jan 2015 05:08

Enra Traz wrote:Animals are not capable of suffering as much as humans. The ones that come closest in potential are our cousins, the apes. This is determined by biology. Scientific fact. Humans do deserve compassion and praise for also caring about what happens to lower, inferior species. And it is plain to see that sometimes some of us get disproportionally sentimental insofar as imagining that animals are like us goes. Animals do not have human minds and couldn't give a toss if a human cries. They care about the humans that feed them and help them to survive simply because those humans are a prolific source.

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Ironically I've seen lots of recent studies showing how Dogs are far more psychologically similar to us than many of or primate relatives. You might wanna check this out..... http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29895614/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/dogs-not-chimps-most-humans/
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

Enra Traz
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby Enra Traz » 05 Jan 2015 11:06

@nesgirl: "Animals are like us and they are capable of suffering just like us. I have seen and observed how they behave psychologically..."

Examine what you've just said.

@ buildit: "...far more psychologically similar..."

I rest my case. You wanna compare psychology, the field where many disagree and based on observing behaviour which can be interpreted with unnesessary sentimental biases, with biology and ecology?

Just compare the human brain to that of a dog. We are also only one chromosome away from chimps. Some can even exhibit the basics of sign language. A chimp can learn way faster than a dog and far more complex tasks. Dogs are smart by irrational animal standards, I grant them that much (they are better than pigeons).

I rest my case.

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Summerlander
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby Summerlander » 05 Jan 2015 20:39

How acknowledging that animals are inferior to people is the same as not caring for them, or equivalent to incurring cruelty on them, I don't know.

I said, "Animals are not capable of suffering as much as humans." nesgirl and buildit read, "Animals don't suffer therefore we can be cruel to them." I also recall saying that we should spare them any suffering even if they can never comprehend the extent to which human beings suffer, in their current languageless form.

A child is also inferior to an adult in many ways. By nesgirl's standards I guess we should take pleasure in kicking them and have no compassion or empathy for them.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

Enra Traz
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby Enra Traz » 05 Jan 2015 21:36

My husband is far from being cruel towards animals. We looked after a dog for a friend once and the animal ate some cakes I had made when we weren't looking. I was very cross and was going to tell this dog off. But my husband reminded me that the dog would not make the association between punishment and the past misdeed unless you catch it in the act. So we let the animal go.

Acknowledging that animals are inferior can make one be more compassionate towards them. More understanding. Imagining that the animal has a human mind and is capable of understanding what we understand will only lead to treating them unfairly.

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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby buildit » 05 Jan 2015 21:57

Enra Traz wrote:My husband is far from being cruel towards animals. We looked after a dog for a friend once and the animal ate some cakes I had made when we weren't looking. I was very cross and was going to tell this dog off. But my husband reminded me that the dog would not make the association between punishment and the past misdeed unless you catch it in the act. So we let the animal go.


:shock: Please describe this humanity you poses further for us. I find your description to be like watching Jerry Springer. :roll:

How acknowledging that animals are inferior to people is the same as not caring for them, or equivalent to incurring cruelty on them, I don't know.

Because every time we placed our suffering, our well being or our intelligence ahead of another species in human history it has resulted in the discrimination, slaughter and hate of that species. Human history is full of examples of our benevolence towards other species. So you will have to forgive the misconception that when a person with the social attitude of an ambulance chasing lawyer, like you, discloses the philosophy that animals are inferior to humans. Well, the response speaks for itself as to how your particular brand of humanity is viewed.
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HAGART
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby HAGART » 05 Jan 2015 22:39

I think Summerlander is simply saying inferior INTELLIGENCE. Not an inferior being.

Understanding that actually does make one more compassionate towards animals and we treat them like our children for they too have an inferior intelligence. Did I just call babies stupid? Yes. :lol:

And as for the cake-eating incident, I get angry at people who don't understand how dogs perceive the world and think they understand human language and if we tell them, "Remember that cake you ate an hour ago? Well it was BAD!"

In the dog's view, they have no idea why you are angry and you can traumatize them. What I use to do is get my dog, and return to the scene of the crime. Then you point, and let him know exactly what it is you are upset about. Dog's may be inferior in intelligence to us, and apes, but they certainly have a very high emotional intelligence (towards us humans anyway) and can read us way better than any other animal. (Due to years of domestication).

I once saw a documentary. They did an experiment where one person had a puppy distracted while another put a treat under an upside down bowl, and the one beside it was empty. Then they let a puppy go and the other person pointed to where the treat was. The puppy saw the hand, knew instinctively to go there, and found it. (Any dog owner will tell you that dog's sure do focus on our hands a lot and 'read' them as if they are communicating something to them). They did the same with a Chimpanzee. The chimp couldn't care less where you pointed and made it's own decision as if it was stupid or something.
Last edited by HAGART on 05 Jan 2015 23:08, edited 1 time in total.
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buildit
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Re: nesgirl and Summerlander

Postby buildit » 05 Jan 2015 22:57

HAGART wrote:I once saw a documentary. They did an experiment where one person had a puppy distracted while another put a treat under an upside down bowl, and the one beside it was empty. Then they let a puppy go and the other person pointed to where the treat was. The puppy saw the hand, knew instinctively to go there, and found it. They did the same with a Chimpanzee. The chimp couldn't care less where you pointed and made it's own decision as if it was stupid or something.


Yes, that is referred to as the inference test I believe and is designed to show the ability of animals to infer from another thru actions or facial expressions. They found chimps while having a complex social structure like humans lacked many inference techniques dogs and humans have in common. The big question was is it a trait we have bread into dogs thru thousands of years of cohabitation? I found it more interesting that both chimps and dogs have capacity and intelligence for lying and deceit.

As for the great human "pat on the back" it has not done us any favors thinking ourselves genetically or emotionally superior to other species or even to each other. After all, slave owners reasoned their ownership was by right of superior IQ and station. So the assumption that humans are by nature more emotional than animals simply based on our intelligence is a slippery slope towards the end of the pool where clubbing baby seals, shooting wolves and beating cattle is okay because they don't feel like we do. :roll:
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