The Shocking Truth

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HAGART
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Re: The Shocking Truth

Postby HAGART » 09 Jul 2016 04:32

Transcending. wrote:Re: The Shocking Truth
Post by Transcending. » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:46 pm

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


Well said.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: The Shocking Truth

Postby Summerlander » 09 Jul 2016 16:20

HAGART wrote:
Transcending. wrote:Re: The Shocking Truth
Post by Transcending. » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:46 pm

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


Well said.


Well said. :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Pilgrim
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Re: The Shocking Truth

Postby Pilgrim » 09 Jul 2016 23:05

You guys are stealing my line! :D

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Summerlander
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Re: The Shocking Truth

Postby Summerlander » 10 Jul 2016 00:39

Pilgrim wrote:You guys are stealing my line! :D


Very well said ad infinitum. :-D
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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deschainXIX
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Re: The Shocking Truth

Postby deschainXIX » 10 Jul 2016 02:10

Augh! Sorry I'm so late in my responses. I suck. :P

The idea of other worlds existing adjacent to ours, in other dimensions of sorts, predates quantum mechanics, I think. Writers of fiction and fantasy used the concept way before they knew that the idea actually has some scientific truth to it. Interesting that humans seem to have that intuition to some degree.

Summerlander, if I had experienced something like you described, I would be taking astral projection very seriously. But I haven’t, so I don’t. From my epistemological perch, there are several facial hairs here, and Occam doesn’t pause for a second before shaving away the longest one: the assumption that indeed you are telling the truth in whole and that you experienced an astral projection. If this electromagnetic theory ever yields any hard data, then astral projection will take its place beside meditation, yoga, and lucid dreaming—Eastern spiritual esotericism that happened to tap into some real, functional shit! Though this one would be way bigger than meditation, no doubt. :D

Enra Traz wrote:There is no reason to suppose that the brain is a filter for infinite perception. I don't buy that.


That’s a reductionist interpretation of my view, bordering on a straw man. I don’t think that perception is infinite per se. Blake was on the right track, but I don’t think that beyond the brain lies infinity. More approximately, I think that beyond the brain lies darkness. Nil. To view the world requires a subject. There’s no such thing as an objective picture of “the world.”

Enra Traz wrote:Do you think those hints will be found in this universe? The word could be completely made up ... by the inhabitants of that world. 'Taured' could be completely unrelated to anything we know as a whole.


Most of the names of states in this world tend to reflect the languages of the populations that inhabit them, no? And that other world has three languages that are the same as this world, which is a hell of a match, probably reflecting an entire system of languages over there that are the same as ours. “Taured” definitely sounds made-up, though. Summerlander’s kids could probably have thought up a better name for a fake extra-dimensional republic. :D

Transcending. wrote:Damn... This is a lot to take in. I'm only 14 years old... Is this too much for me @Summerlander?
I'll have to come on later today to read the rest of this
Interesting though, very interesting..
Have you guys ever thought about doing a meet up?
I'm out here wayy in The Bahamas though...
Peace And Love Guys <3


I think I was fourteen when I joined this forum (I’m eighteen now). Christ, has it been four years?

It’s not too much for you, unless you tell yourself that it’s too much for you.

Summerlander wrote:Meeting in The Bahamas sounds grand!


Hopefully you can pay for my plane ticket, because impoverished students don’t usually indulge in vacations to the Bahamas.

I like your restatement of assumptions, by the way, it’s a nice treatise on mindfulness. I would add that, for me at least, mindfulness has become an exercise in discarding the Concept altogether and embracing the infinitude of naked perception. Glancing into the world as though time were gone (time is, after all, just as much an illusion as is space, matter, and everything else) and as though I know not a word of any language, as though I’m reborn every second—Adam in the garden, as Huxley says. That’s as far as we can range into genuine truth. We’re still viewing the world with human apparatus, but we’ve transcended culture and concepts constructed after the merely human. And note that, while my quasi-psychotic babble sounds like pure philosophy, most of my conclusions have been drawn not from reading obscure philologists and men of literature and history (though they’ve also been a driving force) but from exploration of science, especially physics and mathematics.

For example (and I think we’ve discussed this earlier in the thread) …

Einstein’s relativism tells us that there is no force of gravity. There are curvatures in spacetime and everything is simply moving along “straight” lines that are bent due to weight upon the fabric of reality (I’m butchering this concept, and a real physicist would be cringing right now). Isaac Newton’s assumptions about inertial frames as a universal standard against which one can measure “true motion” are incorrect because Newton made the fatal error that so many humans are encumbered by: essentialism. His belief in prime absolutes. He thought there is some force—which actually exists—that propels an object toward the ground when you drop it on the surface of the earth. But choosing to put the inertial, non-accelerating frame on the earth is an arbitrary choice. A human choice, and therefore an unscientific choice. You can put the reference frame anywhere, for example, on the object you’re dropping—and it looks like the earth is accelerating upward to hit the object. The earth is, after all, a giant rock hurtling through space. Not a static absolute by which “true motion” through space can be ascertained. Extrapolate.

Summerlander also gave a more philosophical disproof of essentialism (which is best defined as “the existence of things”): If what underlies a thing is not the thing in itself, then there is no thing. This can go on forever in either direction, in terms of the level at which you view things. Though, someone recently mentioned to me that, contrary to Zeno’s famous query, there isn’t infinitely divisible space between things. (I assumed that there was.) Apparently there’s a theoretical Planck constant or something which defines the precise level beyond which the lines that divide (and define) things blurs and reality literally breaks down. I don’t know if this new material is proof for or against these ideas of non-essentialism. I don’t really understand Planck’s constant either, so I need to know more before drawing conclusions.

Summerlander wrote:We judge others based on what we'd like to be ourselves. But primarily, we just are. We just exist. We overlook this. We tend to define ourselves based on what we do, which is why I deem Sartre's philosophy just as useful today as it was when it was first propagated---because it reminds us of how we first started and how we are prompted to build an essence wherein lies an ego, or self, in the making.


“We just exist.” Exactly. Except that the “we” in this sentence is not just “we humans,” but everything in existence. Part of conceptualization is division and definition, the perception that there are separate things out there. But the universe, as we’ve said, is one thing, of which we are a part. Causality is a fluid operation, a key turning in a lock, a series of happenings that is actually one enormous Happening. The universe just exists.

Oh, and for the record, I think everything you guys wrote was, of course, well said.

Very well said, actually. :mrgreen:
Well said.

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deschainXIX
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Re: The Shocking Truth

Postby deschainXIX » 10 Jul 2016 04:01

I think that, the other day, I experienced the moment without any linguistic conceptualization. After about 30 minutes of mindfulness meditation, I was genuinely looking into the world as though I didn't know any language. Things were reduced to their essences, bloated gleaming objects without any purpose or identity. Sensations were immediately felt in each moment and no judgments or thoughts or feelings were had about any of it.

Initially, there is this sensation of rising up to meet the nameless phenom, a very physical feeling of fleeing one's own mind. And the mind does take hot pursuit. It's very difficult, especially if you've not been meditating or your mind is prone to slapping labels on things and immediately verbalizing experience. I enjoy writing, so I have a pretty much seamless inner monologue. This was very difficult, but, I think, important. It's actually essential to advanced forms of mindfulness. It's that "pristine awareness" you refer to, Summerlander, where the mind becomes but vast tracts of empty space, opened up to be filled with conscious thought as one wishes.

Has anyone here tried anything like this?
Well said.

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HAGART
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Re: The Shocking Truth

Postby HAGART » 10 Jul 2016 07:00

Experiencing "Ego Death" in a lucid dream is a goal of mine.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: The Shocking Truth

Postby Summerlander » 10 Jul 2016 16:40

deschainXIX wrote:Interesting that humans seem to have that intuition to some degree.


Either we have an intuition for hidden possibilities or human imagination is bound to coincide with facts that were once unknown.

deschainXIX wrote:Summerlander, if I had experienced something like you described, I would be taking astral projection very seriously.


I asked Helen recently if she ever tried to kill herself in her bath. She told me she didn't. I don't see any reason for her to deny anything she might have tried when she was quite open about the Brighton incident. To be honest, my time for taking astral projection seriously is long gone. I dislike the whole concept. I have indeed experienced quite a few intriguing lucid dreams that ostensibly seem to lend weight to the Robert Monroe's notion that consciousness---or something like a soul---can exit the body and travel boundlessly through time, space and other dimensions.

But now, I think even you would insist on the Humean approach had you experienced what seems like tapping into the minds of others. Even if there really is something more to such experiences, I think it says more about Persinger's scientific hypothesis than some New Age world view. 8-)

deschainXIX wrote:From my epistemological perch, there are several facial hairs here, and Occam doesn’t pause for a second before shaving away the longest one: the assumption that indeed you are telling the truth in whole and that you experienced an astral projection.


I wouldn't even seek to prove the latter because I don't believe it. The former, I simply wouldn't try even though I know it to be subjectively true; I could arrange for you to meet Helen to confirm her side of the story but she is my friend and could be in 'cahoots' with me. Anyway, such experiences do happen---as I said before, if they never did, then it would be weird. Their nature is what should be in question though and I'm willing to bet that what explains them is quite mundane. ;-)

deschainXIX wrote:If this electromagnetic theory ever yields any hard data, then astral projection will take its place beside meditation, yoga, and lucid dreaming—Eastern spiritual esotericism that happened to tap into some real, functional shit! Though this one would be way bigger than meditation, no doubt. :D


I would ditch the term 'astral projection' though. The electromagnetic theory still lies in the physicalist realm as it attempts to guess at what the physical world might naturally allow. Astral projection, on the other hand, posits that there is something more beyond physical reality which science can never test. You see the difference? :-)

deschainXIX wrote:That’s a reductionist interpretation of my view, bordering on a straw man. I don’t think that perception is infinite per se. Blake was on the right track, but I don’t think that beyond the brain lies infinity. More approximately, I think that beyond the brain lies darkness. Nil. To view the world requires a subject. There’s no such thing as an objective picture of “the world.”


I agree with this. I guess what Enra was trying to say is that we are not conscious of everything if our brains cease to exist. The brain is not narrowing some hypothetical full extent of awareness. To say so is to imply that consciousness does not originate in the brain. This goes against everything that neuroscience strongly suggests.

deschainXIX wrote:Most of the names of states in this world tend to reflect the languages of the populations that inhabit them, no? And that other world has three languages that are the same as this world, which is a hell of a match, probably reflecting an entire system of languages over there that are the same as ours. “Taured” definitely sounds made-up, though. Summerlander’s kids could probably have thought up a better name for a fake extra-dimensional republic. :D


It is easy to conceive of a similar world where the names of states must be completely made up instead (perhaps as a symbolic rule).

deschainXIX wrote:Hopefully you can pay for my plane ticket, because impoverished students don’t usually indulge in vacations to the Bahamas.


:mrgreen:

deschainXIX wrote:I like your restatement of assumptions, by the way, it’s a nice treatise on mindfulness. I would add that, for me at least, mindfulness has become an exercise in discarding the Concept altogether and embracing the infinitude of naked perception. Glancing into the world as though time were gone (time is, after all, just as much an illusion as is space, matter, and everything else) and as though I know not a word of any language, as though I’m reborn every second—Adam in the garden, as Huxley says. That’s as far as we can range into genuine truth. We’re still viewing the world with human apparatus, but we’ve transcended culture and concepts constructed after the merely human.


It's certainly transcendental. :-)

deschainXIX wrote:And note that, while my quasi-psychotic babble sounds like pure philosophy, most of my conclusions have been drawn not from reading obscure philologists and men of literature and history (though they’ve also been a driving force) but from exploration of science, especially physics and mathematics.


I can relate to that. 8-)

I'll be back to reply to the rest. Very interesting.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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deschainXIX
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Re: The Shocking Truth

Postby deschainXIX » 11 Jul 2016 04:16

HAGART wrote:Experiencing "Ego Death" in a lucid dream is a goal of mine.


Mine too. The short-cut--imbibing psychedelics--is perhaps more dangerous than the long road of lucid dreaming, but tempting nonetheless.

Summerlander wrote:I wouldn't even seek to prove the latter because I don't believe it. The former, I simply wouldn't try even though I know it to be subjectively true; I could arrange for you to meet Helen to confirm her side of the story but she is my friend and could be in 'cahoots' with me. Anyway, such experiences do happen---as I said before, if they never did, then it would be weird. Their nature is what should be in question though and I'm willing to bet that what explains them is quite mundane.


For the record, I totally believe you and don't think you're lying (because I know you). And, you probably know this, but I should say that I was just making a comment about Occam's razor, that it requires fewer assumptions to say you're lying than to posit an entire new world view including the ethereal realm. :ugeek:

Summerlander wrote:I agree with this. I guess what Enra was trying to say is that we are not conscious of everything if our brains cease to exist. The brain is not narrowing some hypothetical full extent of awareness. To say so is to imply that consciousness does not originate in the brain. This goes against everything that neuroscience strongly suggests.


It implies both Cartesian dualism and the existence of an objective world apart from a subjective observer. The latter merely follows from the former, but, to me, is the more interesting and less obvious implication.

There are two articles I've found that were published recently in popular magazines that pertain to the topic in their own ways. I haven't read them yet; I intend to do so tomorrow, when I'll also post my reflections on them. The first is from the New York Times, the second from New Scientist.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/05/science/what-is-consciousness.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329762-700-consciousness-on-off-switch-discovered-deep-in-brain/
Well said.

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Summerlander
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Re: The Shocking Truth

Postby Summerlander » 11 Jul 2016 10:51

Ooooh ... :o

Thanks for sharing! I'll be checking it out and will also address your other posts.

I need to keep up! :shock:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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