What do u think about christianity

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Snaggle
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Re: What do u think about christianity

Postby Snaggle » 08 Jun 2015 12:36

deschainXIX wrote:But we do know that his model of the world includes a "scientism" that is based not on empiricism and deduction but on preconceived ontological notions that cannot be tainted no matter the evidence against them (dogma). That's sort of what I mean; I didn't mean it as a vitriolic bite.

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Entirely based upon induction and deduction deschain, Scientism had a definite founder who sold the new faith for reasons of state, as he did not believe in his own religion. It was complete at the moment of its founding and its dogmas have not changed at all since it's founding - even Christianity has evolving dogma lol.

I'll have you know, Desert, that Snaggle is a polytheist who believes the Bible, in particular the New Testament, is a source of reason. He is clearly irked by 'ignorant Christians' and supports Catholicism (with a blend of Platonism) over Protestantism. :-D


I expressed my views quite clearly Summerland - believer are "mental defectives". I just see that the followers of Scientism are even more believer than the religious. The advantage of being purely rational is that one can see the mistakes others are making in their epistemology and ethics, as scietism has no ethnics that's a really huge amount of irrationally. Science is a method, rationality is above science and Scietism does not use science any more than the other religions.
"There is only one God and his name is Death.
And there is only one thing we say to death "not today"
- Syrio Forel

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Summerlander
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Re: What do u think about christianity

Postby Summerlander » 08 Jun 2015 17:33

I'm a (mostly) rational, conscious being. A hammer is just an object, an inanimate thing. I can think -- unlike the hammer! But the hammer was designed for a purpose and it can help me to do things that I can't do without one. I hope this analogy demonstrates to you, Snaggle, that it's not about some things being above others; it is mostly about pragmatism. Also, as you've just conceded, 'scientism' does not represent science and vice versa. :-)

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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deschainXIX
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Re: What do u think about christianity

Postby deschainXIX » 10 Jun 2015 00:57

I acknowledge that science is based upon a "faith" in the legitimacy of induction and deduction. But this is purely lingual and even misleading. First of all, faith means taking something to be true on no evidence. We know this to be antithetical to empiricism and deduction. Perhaps what we can say is that science is a sort of phenomenological method. Now, in this sense science is superior in every sector, as we all surely can agree that all nuomenological claims are groundless and absurd.

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Well said.

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DesertExplorer
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Re: What do u think about christianity

Postby DesertExplorer » 10 Jun 2015 01:10

Does the word "nuomenological" exist? If so, what does it mean?
Anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it...

- Jesus Christ

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deschainXIX
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Re: What do u think about christianity

Postby deschainXIX » 10 Jun 2015 01:14

Summerlander introduced me to the Kantian "phenomena/noumema" dichotomy here:http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15125&p=45749&hilit=Phenomena+noumena#p45749

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Well said.

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Summerlander
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Re: What do u think about christianity

Postby Summerlander » 10 Jun 2015 09:44

Here's the definition from the link Deschain provided plus a Daniel Dennett quote for Snaggle to read:

Dualism is nevertheless tempting as a copout. But it is a non-explanation. Immanuel Kant once made a distinction between two terms: phenomena and noumena. The former describes things as they appear. The latter is the concept of things as they are. To excise the dogma of dualism once and for all we need more progress on the noumenal side of consciousness. When and if we succeed, religion will be forced to go through a radical reform or be jettisoned altogether.

Here is a gorgeous quote by Dennett:

"There is the lurking suspicion that the most attractive feature of mind stuff is its promise of being so mysterious that it keeps science at bay forever. This fundamentally antiscientific stance of dualism is, to my mind, its most disqualifying feature, and is the reason why I adopt the apparently dogmatic rule that dualism is to be avoided at all costs. It is not that I think I can give a knock-down proof that dualism, in all its forms, is false or incoherent, but that, given the way dualism wallows in mystery, accepting dualism is giving up."

- From "Consciousness Explained"

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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emmaisnthere
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Re: What do u think about christianity

Postby emmaisnthere » 30 Jul 2015 16:22

Whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm a (beginner) lucid dreamer and a Christian. I have heard the tabloid that Christians are 100% against lucid dreaming. No. The only reason that people thought this in the first place is in the Catholic Bible (is that what it's called?), it said something about the saints have to whisper in your ear what to do, instead of you listening to your dreams, because that could be Satan. Christians don't have saints. We pray directly to God. I can't, honestly, even name a saint. Thank you, goodbye!
I tried my best... :P

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Summerlander
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Re: What do u think about christianity

Postby Summerlander » 30 Jul 2015 22:05

Christians don't have saints? Are you sure? Cos from where I'm standing, the Vatican would disagree! Do you know how many people have been beatified and canonised by Popes? If you haven't heard and don't care much for the history of this predominant monotheism, there are those who uphold it who would argue that you are not even a proper Christian. (I find moderate wannabes--who don't know what they're talking about, mind you--more ignoble, more repugnant, than those who devoutly follow their faith.)

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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deschainXIX
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Re: What do u think about christianity

Postby deschainXIX » 31 Jul 2015 01:50

I think she means to say that she doesn't find Catholicism to be a legitimate strain of Christianity. And you're right, Summerlander, to point out that Catholics wouldn't think she's legitimate. It's a "she-said," "he-said." The only problem, emmaisnthere, is that all Christians have the same Bible (Catholics don't have a separate holy text, though they do, apparently, have the right to declare some books canon and others apocryphal and most Protestants don't protest).

I used to be PM'd quite often by Christians worried that God would be displeased with their lucid dreaming, and I wasn't sure why they thought that. It's a broad conception among Christians, apparently.

I remember that most of my rightist Christian family thought lucid dreaming was some sort of defilement and abuse of our direct line with God. They thought that all dreams were messages from Him, and claimed to have visited both heaven and hell in them. As a Christian, I was just as confused by this stupidity as you are, emmaisnthere.
Well said.

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Summerlander
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Re: What do u think about christianity

Postby Summerlander » 08 Aug 2015 15:19

My mother is starting to renounce Christianity but she cannot shake the belief in an all-loving god who will make it all okay in the hereafter. She still thinks, however, that the lucid dream world is some kind of spiritual plane of existence populated by discarnate beings. At least she doesn't believe demons pretend to be our deceased loved ones in dreams!

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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