Organic Food

For all other chat which isn't directly related to lucid dreaming and the world of sleep and dreams.
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HAGART
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Re: Organic Food

Postby HAGART » 23 Jan 2018 19:57

Summerlander wrote:I know what you mean. There's a kind of beauty and poetry in such oneiric experiences. They can have a profound effect on us.


The thing is, we are not logical. We think with analogies with an analogic mind. In a lucid dream our brains fire on all cylinders and sort out all our emotions and confusion by comparisons and metaphors. It's a balanced state of mind between cognitive logic, and our subjective memories and emotions. That sums it up pretty much. But it's a very special state (40Hz right?) which nothing (no drug or waking life experience) has ever compared to in my full life's experience. (I have to include all my dreams as part of my life and what made me who I am. They are equally a life experience as anything else I ever 'did')

As for DK's dream. I don't interpret much, but like to add a few comments.
RedKryptonite wrote:I'm a greedy bastard who usually goes for the biggest and juiciest piece.

At least you're not Cartman who only eats the KFC skin, leaving others to suffer with batterless chicken.

Nice to see a dream character, (grandpa), on your side. Then you have your other uncle nagging you. I feel these truly are the basis of the angel and devil archetypes on our shoulders and you are attributing it to them. We all do. We have people in our lives that make us feel a certain way, always at odds. I think it could be any variable, and I have family I relate to more than others too, who I just know are on the same page and others who aren't, some against me, some for me.
(EDIT: I'll try and explain this better. I mean, those people in your dream are all YOU. The voice that says, go ahead and eat what you want, compared to the one that puts you down for being fat or lazy, is all in your head actually. So what I mean is, the feelings and thoughts come first, before the visuals and events of the dream. (Again this is a chicken or egg dilemma worthy of debate, kind of like nature vs. nurture. I bet it's a combination of both, but not sure which is stronger, and perhaps it varies from dream to dream. Onironic Science is pretty much an oxymoron. But deep down, our psychological blue prints are pretty much clones of each other.)

It's unfortunate when we realize eventually, that our own mothers are not necessarily for us, and you have to grow up and disagree.

One last note of detail:
RedKryptonite wrote:Uncle R (my toxic uncle) was seated right beside me to the left.


I've kept track of whether people or events in my dreams happen to the left or right of me. I think it's significant, much how our eyes will look left or right when we imagine the past or future, optimism pessimism, and you can tell what others are thinking and catch them in lies by looking at where their eyes and attention goes, even whether up or down. I feel it's significant in dreams, when we turn left or right, or things appear to the left or right, and maybe it has to do with left or right brains, I dunno! I never looked through me journal to find a connection, and maybe it's been studied before, but it's a hunch of mine that it's worth noting in dream journals. In the future, I may be able to see patterns.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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RedKryptonite
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Re: Organic Food

Postby RedKryptonite » 25 Jan 2018 04:43

@HAGART
Have you ever tried talking to your subconscious or try to access past forgotten memories in your lucid dreams? The idea fascinates me but its not something I've ever tried before. If I'm not mistaken,Rebecca confirms it as a yes.

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Summerlander
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Re: Organic Food

Postby Summerlander » 27 Jan 2018 07:02

Past forgotten memories. Hmmm. :|

How would one be able to verify that the content revealed through dreaming is a lost memory when memory itself is so unreliably precarious? How could we rule out the common false memory syndrome or the déjà vu brain glitch? :ugeek:

The only way to verify the authenticity of new mental material coming to the fore would be to revisit the places where you think your brain first generated the conscious information relevant to what was happening at the time. You'd have to play detective. :geek:

Not saying it's impossible, but I'm not so convinced about successfully retrieving lost memories from the subconscious via lucid dreaming. I suspect we may stumble upon accurate information by lucidly scanning the deepest recesses of our minds, like a lucky dip. :)

Retrieving lost conceptions is never guaranteed with every attempt. A course in mnemonics could help lucid dreamers hone their retrieving skills and home in on those conceptions evocative of nostalgia. 8-)

Perhaps scents can revive memories of people and places long forgotten. Who knows. :)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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RedKryptonite
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Re: Organic Food

Postby RedKryptonite » 27 Jan 2018 08:14

Summerlander wrote:Past forgotten memories. Hmmm. :|

How would one be able to verify that the content revealed through dreaming is a lost memory when memory itself is so unreliably precarious? How could we rule out the common false memory syndrome or the déjà vu brain glitch? :ugeek:

The only way to verify the authenticity of new mental material coming to the fore would be to revisit the places where you think your brain first generated the conscious information relevant to what was happening at the time. You'd have to play detective. :geek:

Not saying it's impossible, but I'm not so convinced about successfully retrieving lost memories from the subconscious via lucid dreaming. I suspect we may stumble upon accurate information by lucidly scanning the deepest recesses of our minds, like a lucky dip. :)

Retrieving lost conceptions is never guaranteed with every attempt. A course in mnemonics could help lucid dreamers hone their retrieving skills and home in on those conceptions evocative of nostalgia. 8-)

Perhaps scents can revive memories of people and places long forgotten. Who knows. :)

I believe I once read this on Marc Macyoung's website,on how a construction worker under hypnosis or hypnotic suggestion was able to accurately recall the number of bricks he used for a brick wall he built several years ago. I've looked long and hard for that article,but unfortunately I haven't had any luck at all.

As you've said,this could very well be a false memory,but if this is accurate and hypnosis could somehow allow you to access past forgotten memories,then its definitely not far fetched to say that lucid dreaming could allow that as well. The topic intrigues me enough that I've decided I'm going to message Marc himself for clarification,I'll get back to you on this if he has anything interesting to say.

BTW you probably already know this,but interestingly enough,hypnosis is actually real(some LD techniques such as MILD are based on it). Its just not the superhuman ability that fiction often depicts it as. It will definitely not protect you from a mugger/violent attacker nor will it give you the ability to seduce any woman you want(despite what PUA scammers peddle). However,here's some very clear(though unfortunate)demonstrations of what hypnosis is actually capable of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n7tGnK0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa1nzD-n25Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

All 3 videos are about Martial arts frauds/scammers teaching bullshit known as "No-touch martial arts." Arguably the worst scam of the martial arts industry. However,look at the poor students. They believe the teachings so deeply that the no-touch BS is ACTUALLY WORKING ON THEM! They aren't pretending,they are fainting for real! :shock:

So yeah,this shit would never work in a self-defense situation,but its a powerful demonstration of real life hypnosis. Fortunately,the 3rd video shows one of these "masters" getting their ass handed to them by a legitimate fighter. :D (Although its possible that particular old guy wasn't really a scammer,but another victim who became a master,believing that what he knows is the truth. if this is indeed the case,that event must be a world-shattering event for him,but it needed to be done. Hopefully he along with his students have realized the truth after that.)

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Summerlander
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Re: Organic Food

Postby Summerlander » 27 Jan 2018 09:11

Even with hypnotism, it is all about mnemonics. I don't doubt the construction worker's story. But notice how such stories are emphasised with one-sided interpretations. The fella got the number of bricks right because hypnosis enabled him to accurately recall the building of the wall---it couldn't be that the brain's mnemonic reconstruction of said event stumbled upon the exact number!

Bearing in mind that every time one recalls something the memory of original events is always a reconstruction, couldn't a false memory get something right by accident? What if he got the number of bricks right but the colour wrong or vice versa? What then? You see what I'm getting at? :)

What is the truth? Did he mnemonically retain the right number or did his brain merely hit the jackpot in recreating what the mind believes was lost? What I'm having trouble with is reconciling the fact that the subconscious mind possesses a mercurial abstractionism with the notion that it can be on the money with 100% certainty and accuracy.

We are talking about a recent version of the brain---with all its alterations---reviving old neuronal connections and activity without the initial sensory input that gave rise to the original experience.

You may believe that you are reliving an experience, but ... are you really reliving it? :mrgreen:

I'm sorry for being philosophically sceptical about this. That's what happens when I have a non-organic banana milkshake! :D
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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RedKryptonite
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Re: Organic Food

Postby RedKryptonite » 27 Jan 2018 10:05

Summerlander wrote:I'm sorry for being philosophically sceptical about this. That's what happens when I have a non-organic banana milkshake! :D

Its cool man. I like it that way. While WOLD is for the most part,one of those websites for "peaceful tea parties",I invite heated but healthy debate. It keeps us honest and prevents us from falling for our own delusions and misconceptions. We may be oneironauts,but we are also scientific people. ;)

In fact,I just found an article that supports what you're saying:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1338671/Hypnosis-does-not-help-accurate-memory-recall-says-study.html

So yeah,hypnosis is by no means full-proof(I don't think I've ever implied that it is)but it remains an interesting tool nonetheless.

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Summerlander
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Re: Organic Food

Postby Summerlander » 27 Jan 2018 18:13

A dose of healthy scepticism doesn't hurt. One thing is for sure: taming the mind is one of the hardest things anyone can do. Don't get me wrong, lucid dreaming is a great tool to help us know ourselves and how we relate to the world at large.

However, we must beware of our tendency to make associations and confirmation bias in particular. Have you ever noticed, for instance, how accurate lucid dreaming appears to be when we use it to visit other people in an attempt to 'telepathically' see what's on their minds?

I'm talking about those instances where we seemingly exit our bodies to spy on others. Then we ring the 'visited' to ask them what they were doing or thinking at the time and are often surprised to find that what they say dovetails nicely with our experiences. The dovetailing is stronger when we tell them our experience first---I speak from experience; the other party will start making associations for you ... and they can be quite compelling!

But we must always ask ourselves: Can we rule out confirmation bias, coincidence and the possibility that our subconscious mind---with its vast reservoir of information and predictive power---may know the other parties better than the extent that we believe we do?

Why are we so inclined to accept and embrace telepathy? Because we are enamoured with the idea of superpowers. Because such notion is more fantastical than the mundane likelihood of a brain making a myriad connections and inevitably encountering 'hits' which will always be given more significance than the 'misses'.

We need to tread carefully when we strive to understand what's real and what isn't. 8-)

I mean, look at how the food industry peddles organic food! It makes many of us believe that its nutrients will have a stronger effect. Super-food, as it were. We are told it's better! Some people tell you that they've eaten organic food for years and they feel fine---therefore what organic food promises for everyone is real---but they do not know how their health would fare if they had just eaten non-organic! You see, they make associations, think they found the path and subsequently you get the frenzied histrionics. :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Organic Food

Postby HAGART » 30 Jan 2018 22:38

RedKryptonite wrote:@HAGART
Have you ever tried talking to your subconscious or try to access past forgotten memories in your lucid dreams? The idea fascinates me but its not something I've ever tried before. If I'm not mistaken,Rebecca confirms it as a yes.


Indeed I have a few years ago, and tried to conduct an experiment. Here's the thread for that:
http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14573&p=39439
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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HAGART
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Re: Organic Food

Postby HAGART » 31 Jan 2018 02:33

Summerlander wrote:Bearing in mind that every time one recalls something the memory of original events is always a reconstruction


Yeap. Every memory is tweaked a little bit when we create the story of our lives as we remember it, and changes each time we recall it until we're satisfied with it. It's certainly a reconstruction, perhaps like a cheesy, simplified reenactment of the events like you see in bad documentaries. We don't document our lives in our minds accurately at all.

Summerlander wrote:the other party will start making associations for you ... and they can be quite compelling!

This too happens. I saw a show about memory and how unreliable it is. If you have a group of people recalling a past event that they all attended, each person tells a slightly different story, and sometimes start to believe what all the others have said about the event when out numbered, even though they were right.

What is real and what isn't is based on our unreliable memories. :?
( How do you know you were not created a moment ago, and all your memories are implanted?! :o )
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Organic Food

Postby Summerlander » 31 Jan 2018 12:40

Hagart wrote:What is real and what isn't is based on our unreliable memories. 
( How do you know you were not created a moment ago, and all your memories are implanted?!  )


Like the film Multiplicity starring Michael Keaton. The clone belived he was the original person because he had the same brain structure and hence the same personal memories. Imagine believing that you're a middle-aged man---feeling like you have lived for about four decades---to be told by a scientist that you are, in actual fact, only five minutes old. 8-)

Plus you also discover that the person you're in love with, that you believe you have married and known for years, isn't really your wife. And your kids aren't yours either. They belong to another man who is identical and actually lived 'your' life's experiences. He precedes your existence and owns everything you thought was yours by right. Your identity is merely a copy; you're just part of some unethical experiment. :geek:

Organic food for thought. :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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