Organic Food

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HAGART
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Re: Organic Food

Postby HAGART » 01 Feb 2018 02:55

I have gave it organic thought and tried wrapping my mind around it after smoking something organic and wrapped...

I'm just ageless putty in a dream I call present, starring me, playing the role of myself, basing my decisions on the story I created in my mind of my past, and imagine the future, solving potential problems that may possibly happen, but most never do. :ugeek:


Now I'm imagining, what if you step out of a cloning machine booth suddenly, knowing that just a moment ago, you were about to pull a switch that will clone you from a machine at the other side of the room. That's what it would be like for the first clone to appear. It would be YOU, but as if just starting at the other side of the room suddenly.

Now what if the first you gets vaporized in the process. That would be a teleportation machine, but every time it's used, you die. :shock:
Every clone would have just as much survival instincts as I do, and we'd all have endless discussions wondering why I am me in my body here and now and not you and vice versa. Makes my head spin though. Even if it's all a co-created dream I'm making with the waves of the universe, I still wonder, why I feel like me, and wake up as me, stuck in this body, and it happened countless times before, is happening billions of times now, and there will continue to be many 'me's wondering why they are them and not someone else. The fact of the matter is, we are already clones pretty much.

The sense of self is an illusion anyway you look at it. It's made up.

As for someone stealing my identity, or being that person who takes over someone else's was in a movie, but I don't totally recall what the name was. ;)
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Organic Food

Postby Summerlander » 02 Feb 2018 18:05

This is redolent of the late Derek Parfitt's thought experiment which I posted on 'The Shocking Truth' thread:

And then there is the riddle of the self which philosopher Derek Parfit once emphasised in the following thought experiment:

Imagine a teleportation device that can beam people from Earth to Mars. All you need to do is go inside a chamber, press a green button, and presto you're there (or so you've heard). Before you go in the chamber for the first time, technicians tell you that all the information in your brain and body will be sent to a similar station on Mars, where you will be reassembled down to the last atom. Several of your friends have already done it and they message you from Mars, telling you that they're fine and describe the experience as being one of instantaneous relocation: 'Don't worry! You push the green button and find yourself standing on Mars--where your most recent memory is of pushing the button on Earth and wondering if anything would happen!'

So you decide to teleport to Mars. However, as you make arrangements with the technicians, you come across a troubling fact about the mechanics of teleportation: It turns out that the technicians wait for a person's replica to be built on Mars before obliterating his original body on Earth. The benefit of this is that it leaves nothing to chance; if the process of replication goes wrong, no harm has been done. However, the troubling factor is quite clear:

While your double begins his day on Mars with all your memories, prejudices and goals intact, you will be standing in the teleportation chamber on Earth, just staring at the green button. Imagine a voice on the intercom congratulating you for arriving safely at your destination and that in a few moments your Earth body will be destroyed. How is this different from getting killed?

And yet, consider that the same arrangement of atoms that begets your sense of self and identity would be walking on Mars and believing himself to be you. You may think that the replica is nothing but a deluded perfect clone, but then consider the fact that all your cells have been replaced many times during your lifetime. You may remember having been six-years-old but the truth is that that little boy is long gone and the new cells have merely inherited memories. This gives rise to the illusion of a continued self. We must also consider the fact that individuals with extreme dementia are not psychologically continuous with whom they used to be--and yet, they hold the same neurons that gradually succumb to the disease. In their case, a new set of neurons compatible with continued consciousness could restore their once healthy psyche...

What is the self then? What does it rely on? Could it be that, in Parfit's thought experiment, we die on Earth but suddenly find ourselves conscious on Mars? Or do we die and the replica on Mars is nothing but a replicated self but with a fundamental difference of location in the fabric of space? 
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Organic Food

Postby HAGART » 02 Feb 2018 18:43

From the perspective of the teleporter, they are simply going into a suicide booth.
And from the perspective of the teleportee, they feel like they miraculously appear on Mars unscathed.

You can copy and replicate all the atoms, but what about the electrical impulses that are happening in the brain? Do they just continue where left off as if nothing happened? Would the clone pick up with the exact same thoughts you had as you were being cloned? How long does it take to replicate? For a period of time, the clone would be thinking with an incomplete brain as the self is pieced back together again. (Not unlike some mornings after a deep dream.)

Also, for a moment, there are two of you, but your consciousness doesn't transport. If one believes in a soul, you'd be thrust out of the original body and control both for a moment, and then when one dies, you enter the other body. If you make many clones, would you become a hive mind and control them all?

I want someone to test this out and report back to me. Then again, the clone would still believe it has a soul, so it won't end the debates. Then again, I can live with the unanswered question without being attacked by an army of clones controlled by the original person with a hive mind. I don't want to take my chances.

It's Theseus's Ship paradox, which goes to show that Buddha was right. We are just ever-changing thought streams in a body that has cloned itself repeatedly even our brain cells which were once believed to never regenerate.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Organic Food

Postby Summerlander » 04 Feb 2018 09:17

I've been smoking wrapped organic shit, too. That shit can make you think! :mrgreen:

On a serious note, I'm also that ageless putty. We are consciousness, so, in a sense, we are the same---we just have different perspectives. Our contents of consciousness differ as well, because the what it is like to be Hagart has different memories from the what it is like to be Summerlander. :geek:

Hagart wrote: From the perspective of the teleporter, they are simply going into a suicide booth. And from the perspective of the teleportee, they feel like they miraculously appear on Mars unscathed.


Two different perspectives. It's like two parallel versions of yourself in the same universe. The moment of teleportation marks their divergence in space and experience. My intuition tells me two conscious beings, two separate senses of self, albeit the same identity. But a part of me suspects that consciousness is more mysterious than that, because, although the original dies, the universe happens to provide---in theory---the physical configuration that represents its consecutive self. Can teleportation of this sort be a means to cheat death? :o

Oh man ... why does it have to be a thought experiment?! Fuck sake! I'd love to know what happens. To find out, you'd have to volunteer for teleportation. Would you step inside the 'suicide booth'? And it's funny how the timing seems to matter to us as regards consciousness and the sense of self. Do we intuitively feel that time is relevant to continuous awareness as the relevant events unfold? :|

Hagart wrote: It's Theseus's Ship paradox, which goes to show that Buddha was right. We are just ever-changing thought streams in a body that has cloned itself repeatedly even our brain cells which were once believed to never regenerate.


The paradox deepens when the 'ship' is conscious. Imagine that a scientist had collected all the cells you lost since childhood and managed to preserve them in a lab for a younger Hagart reconstruction! :shock:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Organic Food

Postby HAGART » 04 Feb 2018 19:30

Summerlander wrote: Imagine that a scientist had collected all the cells you lost since childhood and managed to preserve them in a lab for a younger Hagart reconstruction!


Like Akira. 8-)

There is so much you can do with this thought experiment. We only scratched the surface.

The data to remake you would be limited to the speed of light, (presumably so far with what we know), so if you teleport light years away, what if you die in the few years before your clone is constructed on the far away planet? Then do it again and again. In fact, you don't even need distance, just a delay. You can recreate a clone of yourself every single time you die.

But it's not "you" who you are now. "You" with those particular set of atoms and energy occupying that space and time, stop thinking, pretty much like you always do every night during deep sleep, so it's no big deal, but you don't wake up again forever, but forever is meaningless because there is no perception of time anyway. You just blink out of existence, or another way of putting it, existence blinks out of your thoughts. Then a brand new person is formed, with new atoms, not the same ones, and occupying a different space and time and it has the exact same thoughts as if nothing happened, just a little brain fog perhaps about what happened for a few seconds, and feel like nothing happened.

So there would be a clone, but I wouldn't perceive it anymore. Then who is the I? There might be something deeper for sure. Perhaps deep down we are actually subatomic aliens controlling giant organic robots. Or maybe there's a soul. Both are equally hard to prove or disprove, but there might be something more than meets the eye for sure.

If it were possible to create a clone without your consciousness, is it possible to put your consciousness into another clone, or switch bodies? If you changed your body very slowly over time, like Theseus's Ship, or like Darth Vader who is more machine than man, can you become completely different, perhaps not even human anymore, and still be you? It's like that but instantaneously.

Now lets imagine speeding up the process. You place one teleportation machine over the other, and jump in. You will be in an infinite falling loop, going in one, coming out the other, constantly dying and being reborn every moment, faster than you can comprehend. Perhaps that's us right now when you think about it. Or what if the version that is created is the same one over and over again with the same thought. If placed in the loop for 10 years, it would feel like nothing happened, you never aged, but then when pulled out, 10 years has passed. Time really is just an illusion in our minds, based on our processing speed, isn't it? What is time really?

And the 'suicide booth' side isn't so bad when we are vaporized instantaneously, faster than we can realize it. It would be different if the teleporter failed to vaporize you, so two maintenance workers have to drag you out of there and toss you in a wood chipper instead. Timing is very important. ;)

So much more that could be thought about. I don't even want to tackle imagining what happens if you do all these things near black holes.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Organic Food

Postby Summerlander » 05 Feb 2018 01:14

Oh no no no no ... no! We're not adding black holes to the equation ... just yet. :mrgreen:

I have this intution that consciousness has a lot more to do with the functionality of particular physical systems than the atoms they contain. The atoms---in bunches of molecules that make up cells---get replaced in organic systems over time. Function finds expression in time. If there is no time, no function of any kind is discerned or manifest. Therefore, I posit that consciousness requires time in order to have presence. Not saying consciousness is a function, but what the cerebral structures inside our noggins do certainly exhibit functionality.

I posit that some kind of three-dimensional mathematical system with a temporal influx and effluxs of information in organisms allows sentience to occur. And all you need is memories for a continuous sense of self to persist. The mental narratives reinforce our identities. The cells might get profusely replaced but the neuronic stencils (like the shape of Theseus's ship), as it were, change only gradually enough for the user illusion to remain. You are not your five-year-old self but you feel like you were only because you remember the boy's experiences from a first-person perspective. (How else could the memory of childhood experiences be when all experiences are always happening to an 'I'?)

It seems to me that self-awareness isn't so much about the stuff the organism is made of as it is about molecular interaction and what it delineates in the cosmos. That's a weird thought ... :shock:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Organic Food

Postby HAGART » 05 Feb 2018 23:00

You summed up our programming well.

It reminds me of something I pondered years ago. I saw a small whirlwind of leaves in a corner of the house where it channels the wind. I could only see it because of the leaves, and the leaves themselves would sometimes fly off and new ones were picked up and incorporated. When does that whirl wind die and a new one created? It takes wind, but that corner made order out of the chaotic wind and formed something that we can label. But it's not visible, it's only the leaves I could see. It's an invisible force, like a 'lifeforce', and we are all like those whirlwinds.

One definition of life is when molecules are behaving in an organized manner, apart from the rest of the chaotic universe. For us, it's our skin, and for cells they have cell walls. But if you think about it this way, then an ecosystem is a larger life form in a way, and so is the entire Earth, a large breathing organism. Organic organisms are organized. I wonder though. If we are constantly replacing our bodies with fresh, ageless atoms, why do we wither and deteriorate? It can't be entropy since the atoms are constantly replacing, it must be the program in the DNA for some reason.

Our consciousness as we know it certainly needs time to exist. We constantly need references for comparison, and notice changes in patterns. You can't perceive anything if there is no change, or oscillating waves. It's possible that the true universe has no time. Everything than can happen has happened all at once. We are the ones making up time in our mind to perceive the universe from this 3D perspective, when the total universe has many more D's.

I get my info from You Tube videos that explain it better. If I find them I'll send them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4Gotl9vRGs
(Ten Dimensions Explained)
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Organic Food

Postby Summerlander » 06 Feb 2018 04:02

I love the whirlwind analogy, well put. The Earth is a chaotic ball of mess spinning and hurtling through space ... and also a 'whirlwind' with a lot of meaning and value to our bemused species ... :|

... and a particular property of the universe remains mysterious---or at least our theories and attempts to explain it away haven't shed its puzzling mystique, yet. :geek:

Amidst the chaos, complex molecules allow for interesting and ostensibly meaningful forms such as organisms. But our bodies are not as ordered to suit our needs as would be ideal. Organisms make mistakes. Innate errors---or the genetic kind, for instance---can jeopardise the whole biological system. (But perhaps we can rectify these anomalies with biology as we bid to create a nonpareil ideal for the future.) :idea:

And as if the precariousness of our condition wasn't enough, we have microbial foes to fight. We may survive all these dangers but we will always be affected by interaction with our surroundings; but most unavoidable is our lifespan written inside our cells. There is only so much work they'll do and telomeres are only as long as they make them.

Nature programmed us to die. But you can't blame it---it is blind. :mrgreen:

I'm somewhat familiar with string theory but I will give that video a look-see in my own time. 8-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Organic Food

Postby HAGART » 06 Feb 2018 20:13

The video is rather long and boring actually.
Here it is cued to the interesting part where you consider how you are in a 4th dimension.
https://youtu.be/p4Gotl9vRGs?t=159

To paraphrase: In the 4th dimension, all of our life is seen from embryo to death, but we are 3 dimensional beings, only seeing cross-sections of the 4th dimension, seeing ourselves changing, and aging as time passes.

Not sure if that's true or not, but can imagine it. (as best I can with a 3D brain)

Here's Terence Mckenna - "Why our perception of time is speeding up"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L6OjWJSSeE
This is an interesting point of view on time and what is happening in the universe. He's done a lot of DMT to come to his conclusions, but that's another topic. Then again, it's organic!
I knew I could find a way to keep this about organic things we can eat.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Organic Food

Postby Summerlander » 07 Feb 2018 03:14

Give me some of that DMT juice, I say! 8-)

It sounds strangely feasible but I suspect deep down my mind is going 'This idea about reality is so cool!' and making me defend it all the way. I first encountered this proposal in an issue of NewScientist and remember being mesmerised by how weird it could all really be. We are talking theoretical physics here (organic :mrgreen: ) so if this hypothesis is correct, time is an illusion. To see time without passage we'd have to stand outside the structure that is our reality. Where might that place be? And is it fair to describe it as 'place' if it happens in another space? :shock:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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