Organic Food

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Summerlander
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Re: Organic Food

Postby Summerlander » 27 Jan 2018 18:13

A dose of healthy scepticism doesn't hurt. One thing is for sure: taming the mind is one of the hardest things anyone can do. Don't get me wrong, lucid dreaming is a great tool to help us know ourselves and how we relate to the world at large.

However, we must beware of our tendency to make associations and confirmation bias in particular. Have you ever noticed, for instance, how accurate lucid dreaming appears to be when we use it to visit other people in an attempt to 'telepathically' see what's on their minds?

I'm talking about those instances where we seemingly exit our bodies to spy on others. Then we ring the 'visited' to ask them what they were doing or thinking at the time and are often surprised to find that what they say dovetails nicely with our experiences. The dovetailing is stronger when we tell them our experience first---I speak from experience; the other party will start making associations for you ... and they can be quite compelling!

But we must always ask ourselves: Can we rule out confirmation bias, coincidence and the possibility that our subconscious mind---with its vast reservoir of information and predictive power---may know the other parties better than the extent that we believe we do?

Why are we so inclined to accept and embrace telepathy? Because we are enamoured with the idea of superpowers. Because such notion is more fantastical than the mundane likelihood of a brain making a myriad connections and inevitably encountering 'hits' which will always be given more significance than the 'misses'.

We need to tread carefully when we strive to understand what's real and what isn't. 8-)

I mean, look at how the food industry peddles organic food! It makes many of us believe that its nutrients will have a stronger effect. Super-food, as it were. We are told it's better! Some people tell you that they've eaten organic food for years and they feel fine---therefore what organic food promises for everyone is real---but they do not know how their health would fare if they had just eaten non-organic! You see, they make associations, think they found the path and subsequently you get the frenzied histrionics. :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Organic Food

Postby HAGART » 30 Jan 2018 22:38

RedKryptonite wrote:@HAGART
Have you ever tried talking to your subconscious or try to access past forgotten memories in your lucid dreams? The idea fascinates me but its not something I've ever tried before. If I'm not mistaken,Rebecca confirms it as a yes.


Indeed I have a few years ago, and tried to conduct an experiment. Here's the thread for that:
http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14573&p=39439
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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HAGART
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Re: Organic Food

Postby HAGART » 31 Jan 2018 02:33

Summerlander wrote:Bearing in mind that every time one recalls something the memory of original events is always a reconstruction


Yeap. Every memory is tweaked a little bit when we create the story of our lives as we remember it, and changes each time we recall it until we're satisfied with it. It's certainly a reconstruction, perhaps like a cheesy, simplified reenactment of the events like you see in bad documentaries. We don't document our lives in our minds accurately at all.

Summerlander wrote:the other party will start making associations for you ... and they can be quite compelling!

This too happens. I saw a show about memory and how unreliable it is. If you have a group of people recalling a past event that they all attended, each person tells a slightly different story, and sometimes start to believe what all the others have said about the event when out numbered, even though they were right.

What is real and what isn't is based on our unreliable memories. :?
( How do you know you were not created a moment ago, and all your memories are implanted?! :o )
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Organic Food

Postby Summerlander » 31 Jan 2018 12:40

Hagart wrote:What is real and what isn't is based on our unreliable memories. 
( How do you know you were not created a moment ago, and all your memories are implanted?!  )


Like the film Multiplicity starring Michael Keaton. The clone belived he was the original person because he had the same brain structure and hence the same personal memories. Imagine believing that you're a middle-aged man---feeling like you have lived for about four decades---to be told by a scientist that you are, in actual fact, only five minutes old. 8-)

Plus you also discover that the person you're in love with, that you believe you have married and known for years, isn't really your wife. And your kids aren't yours either. They belong to another man who is identical and actually lived 'your' life's experiences. He precedes your existence and owns everything you thought was yours by right. Your identity is merely a copy; you're just part of some unethical experiment. :geek:

Organic food for thought. :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Organic Food

Postby HAGART » 01 Feb 2018 02:55

I have gave it organic thought and tried wrapping my mind around it after smoking something organic and wrapped...

I'm just ageless putty in a dream I call present, starring me, playing the role of myself, basing my decisions on the story I created in my mind of my past, and imagine the future, solving potential problems that may possibly happen, but most never do. :ugeek:


Now I'm imagining, what if you step out of a cloning machine booth suddenly, knowing that just a moment ago, you were about to pull a switch that will clone you from a machine at the other side of the room. That's what it would be like for the first clone to appear. It would be YOU, but as if just starting at the other side of the room suddenly.

Now what if the first you gets vaporized in the process. That would be a teleportation machine, but every time it's used, you die. :shock:
Every clone would have just as much survival instincts as I do, and we'd all have endless discussions wondering why I am me in my body here and now and not you and vice versa. Makes my head spin though. Even if it's all a co-created dream I'm making with the waves of the universe, I still wonder, why I feel like me, and wake up as me, stuck in this body, and it happened countless times before, is happening billions of times now, and there will continue to be many 'me's wondering why they are them and not someone else. The fact of the matter is, we are already clones pretty much.

The sense of self is an illusion anyway you look at it. It's made up.

As for someone stealing my identity, or being that person who takes over someone else's was in a movie, but I don't totally recall what the name was. ;)
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Organic Food

Postby Summerlander » 02 Feb 2018 18:05

This is redolent of the late Derek Parfitt's thought experiment which I posted on 'The Shocking Truth' thread:

And then there is the riddle of the self which philosopher Derek Parfit once emphasised in the following thought experiment:

Imagine a teleportation device that can beam people from Earth to Mars. All you need to do is go inside a chamber, press a green button, and presto you're there (or so you've heard). Before you go in the chamber for the first time, technicians tell you that all the information in your brain and body will be sent to a similar station on Mars, where you will be reassembled down to the last atom. Several of your friends have already done it and they message you from Mars, telling you that they're fine and describe the experience as being one of instantaneous relocation: 'Don't worry! You push the green button and find yourself standing on Mars--where your most recent memory is of pushing the button on Earth and wondering if anything would happen!'

So you decide to teleport to Mars. However, as you make arrangements with the technicians, you come across a troubling fact about the mechanics of teleportation: It turns out that the technicians wait for a person's replica to be built on Mars before obliterating his original body on Earth. The benefit of this is that it leaves nothing to chance; if the process of replication goes wrong, no harm has been done. However, the troubling factor is quite clear:

While your double begins his day on Mars with all your memories, prejudices and goals intact, you will be standing in the teleportation chamber on Earth, just staring at the green button. Imagine a voice on the intercom congratulating you for arriving safely at your destination and that in a few moments your Earth body will be destroyed. How is this different from getting killed?

And yet, consider that the same arrangement of atoms that begets your sense of self and identity would be walking on Mars and believing himself to be you. You may think that the replica is nothing but a deluded perfect clone, but then consider the fact that all your cells have been replaced many times during your lifetime. You may remember having been six-years-old but the truth is that that little boy is long gone and the new cells have merely inherited memories. This gives rise to the illusion of a continued self. We must also consider the fact that individuals with extreme dementia are not psychologically continuous with whom they used to be--and yet, they hold the same neurons that gradually succumb to the disease. In their case, a new set of neurons compatible with continued consciousness could restore their once healthy psyche...

What is the self then? What does it rely on? Could it be that, in Parfit's thought experiment, we die on Earth but suddenly find ourselves conscious on Mars? Or do we die and the replica on Mars is nothing but a replicated self but with a fundamental difference of location in the fabric of space? 
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Organic Food

Postby HAGART » 02 Feb 2018 18:43

From the perspective of the teleporter, they are simply going into a suicide booth.
And from the perspective of the teleportee, they feel like they miraculously appear on Mars unscathed.

You can copy and replicate all the atoms, but what about the electrical impulses that are happening in the brain? Do they just continue where left off as if nothing happened? Would the clone pick up with the exact same thoughts you had as you were being cloned? How long does it take to replicate? For a period of time, the clone would be thinking with an incomplete brain as the self is pieced back together again. (Not unlike some mornings after a deep dream.)

Also, for a moment, there are two of you, but your consciousness doesn't transport. If one believes in a soul, you'd be thrust out of the original body and control both for a moment, and then when one dies, you enter the other body. If you make many clones, would you become a hive mind and control them all?

I want someone to test this out and report back to me. Then again, the clone would still believe it has a soul, so it won't end the debates. Then again, I can live with the unanswered question without being attacked by an army of clones controlled by the original person with a hive mind. I don't want to take my chances.

It's Theseus's Ship paradox, which goes to show that Buddha was right. We are just ever-changing thought streams in a body that has cloned itself repeatedly even our brain cells which were once believed to never regenerate.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Organic Food

Postby Summerlander » 04 Feb 2018 09:17

I've been smoking wrapped organic shit, too. That shit can make you think! :mrgreen:

On a serious note, I'm also that ageless putty. We are consciousness, so, in a sense, we are the same---we just have different perspectives. Our contents of consciousness differ as well, because the what it is like to be Hagart has different memories from the what it is like to be Summerlander. :geek:

Hagart wrote: From the perspective of the teleporter, they are simply going into a suicide booth. And from the perspective of the teleportee, they feel like they miraculously appear on Mars unscathed.


Two different perspectives. It's like two parallel versions of yourself in the same universe. The moment of teleportation marks their divergence in space and experience. My intuition tells me two conscious beings, two separate senses of self, albeit the same identity. But a part of me suspects that consciousness is more mysterious than that, because, although the original dies, the universe happens to provide---in theory---the physical configuration that represents its consecutive self. Can teleportation of this sort be a means to cheat death? :o

Oh man ... why does it have to be a thought experiment?! Fuck sake! I'd love to know what happens. To find out, you'd have to volunteer for teleportation. Would you step inside the 'suicide booth'? And it's funny how the timing seems to matter to us as regards consciousness and the sense of self. Do we intuitively feel that time is relevant to continuous awareness as the relevant events unfold? :|

Hagart wrote: It's Theseus's Ship paradox, which goes to show that Buddha was right. We are just ever-changing thought streams in a body that has cloned itself repeatedly even our brain cells which were once believed to never regenerate.


The paradox deepens when the 'ship' is conscious. Imagine that a scientist had collected all the cells you lost since childhood and managed to preserve them in a lab for a younger Hagart reconstruction! :shock:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Organic Food

Postby HAGART » 04 Feb 2018 19:30

Summerlander wrote: Imagine that a scientist had collected all the cells you lost since childhood and managed to preserve them in a lab for a younger Hagart reconstruction!


Like Akira. 8-)

There is so much you can do with this thought experiment. We only scratched the surface.

The data to remake you would be limited to the speed of light, (presumably so far with what we know), so if you teleport light years away, what if you die in the few years before your clone is constructed on the far away planet? Then do it again and again. In fact, you don't even need distance, just a delay. You can recreate a clone of yourself every single time you die.

But it's not "you" who you are now. "You" with those particular set of atoms and energy occupying that space and time, stop thinking, pretty much like you always do every night during deep sleep, so it's no big deal, but you don't wake up again forever, but forever is meaningless because there is no perception of time anyway. You just blink out of existence, or another way of putting it, existence blinks out of your thoughts. Then a brand new person is formed, with new atoms, not the same ones, and occupying a different space and time and it has the exact same thoughts as if nothing happened, just a little brain fog perhaps about what happened for a few seconds, and feel like nothing happened.

So there would be a clone, but I wouldn't perceive it anymore. Then who is the I? There might be something deeper for sure. Perhaps deep down we are actually subatomic aliens controlling giant organic robots. Or maybe there's a soul. Both are equally hard to prove or disprove, but there might be something more than meets the eye for sure.

If it were possible to create a clone without your consciousness, is it possible to put your consciousness into another clone, or switch bodies? If you changed your body very slowly over time, like Theseus's Ship, or like Darth Vader who is more machine than man, can you become completely different, perhaps not even human anymore, and still be you? It's like that but instantaneously.

Now lets imagine speeding up the process. You place one teleportation machine over the other, and jump in. You will be in an infinite falling loop, going in one, coming out the other, constantly dying and being reborn every moment, faster than you can comprehend. Perhaps that's us right now when you think about it. Or what if the version that is created is the same one over and over again with the same thought. If placed in the loop for 10 years, it would feel like nothing happened, you never aged, but then when pulled out, 10 years has passed. Time really is just an illusion in our minds, based on our processing speed, isn't it? What is time really?

And the 'suicide booth' side isn't so bad when we are vaporized instantaneously, faster than we can realize it. It would be different if the teleporter failed to vaporize you, so two maintenance workers have to drag you out of there and toss you in a wood chipper instead. Timing is very important. ;)

So much more that could be thought about. I don't even want to tackle imagining what happens if you do all these things near black holes.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Organic Food

Postby Summerlander » 05 Feb 2018 01:14

Oh no no no no ... no! We're not adding black holes to the equation ... just yet. :mrgreen:

I have this intution that consciousness has a lot more to do with the functionality of particular physical systems than the atoms they contain. The atoms---in bunches of molecules that make up cells---get replaced in organic systems over time. Function finds expression in time. If there is no time, no function of any kind is discerned or manifest. Therefore, I posit that consciousness requires time in order to have presence. Not saying consciousness is a function, but what the cerebral structures inside our noggins do certainly exhibit functionality.

I posit that some kind of three-dimensional mathematical system with a temporal influx and effluxs of information in organisms allows sentience to occur. And all you need is memories for a continuous sense of self to persist. The mental narratives reinforce our identities. The cells might get profusely replaced but the neuronic stencils (like the shape of Theseus's ship), as it were, change only gradually enough for the user illusion to remain. You are not your five-year-old self but you feel like you were only because you remember the boy's experiences from a first-person perspective. (How else could the memory of childhood experiences be when all experiences are always happening to an 'I'?)

It seems to me that self-awareness isn't so much about the stuff the organism is made of as it is about molecular interaction and what it delineates in the cosmos. That's a weird thought ... :shock:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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