This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

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RedKryptonite
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby RedKryptonite » 12 Jan 2018 10:54

Summerlander wrote:^^ I concur.

It is true that I have at times expressed some reservations about antinatalism when I experience some quirky optimism about the possibility of a future utopia, but I cannot bring myself to feel the same way regarding situational antinatalism.

Yes, spare the unborn of suffering. Leave them in the realm of oblivion. If they could glimpse the horrors of experience and send a message to antinatalists, I'm sure it would be, 'Thank you for not bringing us into existence!'

Here's another article by that same guy. One of the most insightful short articles I've ever read:

https://coolchildfreeguy.wordpress.com/2015/04/18/applied-antinatalism-lifes-biggest-pleasures/

Indeed. the most pleasurable things in life are actually bad for us. Even in the pursuit of pleasure,you still lose in the end. On the other hand,if you only strictly pursue what is good and healthy,you're likely going to live a long but pretty boring(or even bothersome)life. That's assuming you don't get fucked over and die young anyway despite your strictly healthy lifestyle. It happens. :mrgreen:

Of course,you can always strike a balance. A hedonist could invest in health supplements and make at least minimal efforts to sustain their health in their pursuit of pleasure. But you'll never be the best of both worlds; A complete and total hedonist with perfect health and perfect living conditions. Life sure has a way of giving us the finger. :lol:

24/7/365
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby 24/7/365 » 12 Jan 2018 22:03

your a free person living in a free society with the advantage of youth, you sound like a discontented malcontent with a natural ability of confusing the gift of gab with proper placement

to coin a phase from a trusted source; stop being a donkey and get your work done

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RedKryptonite
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby RedKryptonite » 13 Jan 2018 06:34

24/7/365 wrote:your a free person living in a free society with the advantage of youth, you sound like a discontented malcontent with a natural ability of confusing the gift of gab with proper placement

to coin a phase from a trusted source; stop being a donkey and get your work done

Well,i am indeed a bit discontent about where my life is right now,but I do acknowledge that it is light years away from where it used to be and may improve even further in the future.

Take note however that arguing whether life is worth continuing is different from arguing whether life is ever worth starting/procreating.

Life for many(not all or even most. though that's a debate for another time)may indeed be worth continuing despite the hardships since all life ends in death anyway and they might still be able to achieve prosperity with the cards they were dealt with.

However,the heart of Antinatalism is that life is never worth starting. Procreation is like gambling,you have no idea how it will turn out. You can have 2 genetically healthy and beautiful couple give birth to an ugly,retarded,and disease-ridden offspring. (i.e Down Syndrome) though it is much less likely than if the couple were genetically unhealthy themselves. (though sadly these people often don't realize that they are dooming their offspring to a potential life of misfortune by breeding mindlessly). oh,and there's also the possibility of giving birth to a future psychopath/sociopath.

and even in the case that the birth itself does turn out well,you have no idea if its life will turn out good. Take a look at this for instance:
https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/7povoe/dad_invites_childs_bullies_to_her_funeral_witness/

These are the very real risks you take every time you put life on this planet. And thus I say,procreation is almost never worth the risk. (and the reason I say "almost" is because I'm still torn between Situational Antinatalism and General Antinatalism. If you're an exceptional person/couple living an exceptional life,it might be worth it. Otherwise,its a no)

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Summerlander
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby Summerlander » 13 Jan 2018 06:56

Take sleep, for instance. Why would so many living lifeforms evolve to spend hours asleep when this leaves them vulnerable to predators. They say it helps the brain to reboot and consolidate memory. It also helps organisms to save energy and 'recharge'. But is it not a major disadvantage in the game of survival---especially in the wild?

Carl Sagan was spot on when he said, 'Extinction is the rule, survival the exception.' There is no intrinsic aim in evolution; the whole process of life's modification and preservation is just a blind flowering undergirded by natural selection and genetic mutation. The universe, that great happening unfolding in the fashion of a quantally hatched explosion, produced the horror of sentient matter out of carbonic structures ...

It wasn't enough to just have inanimate matter jarring against inanimate matter. In this mathematically composed reality of physical attraction and repulsion---the symmetrical opposition of forces---there had to be a natural configuration serving as the diametrical reversal of nonconsciousness. Suddenly, some objects turned into subjects; nature's greatest nightmare was to produce the puzzling what it is like to be something phenomenon. Now some material systems would become aware of their existence and their dangerous, impersonal reality.

The chaos popped into being. The lights were turned on as it were. Consciousness, that mysterious knowing, contemplates its own annihilation.

And the ostensible word of God was heard in some of the minds trying to rationalise their existential predicament: 'Stop being a donkey and get your work done.' :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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RedKryptonite
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby RedKryptonite » 13 Jan 2018 18:43

@Summerlander
May I ask if you've ever read any of Benatar's books? While browsing that coolchildfreeguy blog,I managed to find a free pdf of his book "Better to never have been"
http://vk.com/doc151440227_220518152

I haven't read it yet(will do so soon)but this is where I got the idea between the difference of whether its ever worth starting a life vs continuing a life.

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Summerlander
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby Summerlander » 13 Jan 2018 22:23

I never read Benatar's literature. I first heard of him on Sam Harris's Waking Up podcast not too long ago. Sam Harris recommends it even though he played a little bit of a devil's advocate. Harris is more of an optimistic nihilist. 8-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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RedKryptonite
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby RedKryptonite » 14 Jan 2018 06:00

Summerlander wrote:I never read Benatar's literature. I first heard of him on Sam Harris's Waking Up podcast not too long ago. Sam Harris recommends it even though he played a little bit of a devil's advocate. Harris is more of an optimistic nihilist. 8-)

I see. Take note however that you can be an Optimistic Nihilist and still be Antinatalist. That's pretty much what I am. :mrgreen:

The philosophy of Optimistic Nihilism(at least according to TV tropes where I learned the term)is simply about striving for coexistence and making the most out of our lives since we're already here now and destined to die anyway. It definitely doesn't conflict with the Antinatalist philosophy. I would even say that the 2 philosophies have perfect synergy with one another.

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Summerlander
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby Summerlander » 14 Jan 2018 20:19

In fact you are right. 8-)

Sam Harris still endorses antinatalism as making a good point and something that perhaps we should all ponder on. If you already exist, make the most of it because there are ways to ease the tension---such as mindfulness---and suicide has adverse effects on the bereaved, namely, more unnecessary suffering; so, ethically, we don't want to go there.

Have you listened to the podcast, by the way? Benatar and Harris engage in a very intelligent conversation. They are our cup of tea all the way! ;)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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RedKryptonite
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby RedKryptonite » 15 Jan 2018 15:33

Summerlander wrote:Have you listened to the podcast, by the way? Benatar and Harris engage in a very intelligent conversation. They are our cup of tea all the way! ;)

I'll check it out at a later time. I often lack the patience and attention span to listen to a podcast,but I'll certainly consider give it my ear later on.

I hope this question isn't offensive,but had your young 20 year old self knew what you know now. Would you have chosen to go Childfree? or would you have chosen to adopt?

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Summerlander
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby Summerlander » 16 Jan 2018 05:14

Child-free. I didn't even hesitate to answer the question. :mrgreen:

I do care about my kids but I wouldn't have them for antinatalist reasons. My kids have already suffered---especially in 2016 when they lost their nan. And they'll continue to suffer in this life as we all do. I can't guarantee them a lifetime of steadfast felicity. I would have spared them this crazy struggle for sure ...

... not to mention the contemplation of loss and imminent death threatening the anthropic urge for self-preservation. :|

The question isn't offensive at all. If I hadn't been so mindlessly silly I would have realised that caring is sparing the unborn from existence. :shock:

I wouldn't adopt either. I've had to learn to be patient with childishness in the course of my parenthood. I can just about tolerate my kids. I love them but I dislike children in general. :twisted:

Don't get me wrong---I don't blame them for what they are!---but childcare isn't for me. I applaud those who adopt and give orphans a new home and I'm glad they do what I could not. :)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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