Visions and Thoughts

For all other chat which isn't directly related to lucid dreaming and the world of sleep and dreams.
Nicamy
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Joined: 10 Mar 2018 04:44

Visions and Thoughts

Postby Nicamy » 10 Mar 2018 04:46

Are visions and thoughts different or the same?

Dream_Hacker
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Joined: 12 Mar 2018 13:25

Re: Visions and Thoughts

Postby Dream_Hacker » 12 Mar 2018 13:31

They are not the same. You could say a thought is an analyzation of vision although a thought does not require a vision and a vision does not require a thought although a vision without a thought will be difficult develop into a memory. That I believe is why when one has an extremely spiritual vision during a meditation, when they come back to their physical body they retain no actual memory of the vision. Because they had no thoughts during it, just a sensation of enlightenment and the feelings it brought on. But with all that said you can use thought to bring about visions and alternatively visions can bring about certain thoughts.

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Summerlander
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Re: Visions and Thoughts

Postby Summerlander » 12 Mar 2018 14:59

I would argue, from meditative experience, that a thoughtless vision can have a great impact on memory, and that the pensive muddiness that is rumination promotes substandard consciousness and is thus less likely to have mnemonic impact.

If the mental chatter is less tortured and confused, if it's as simplistic as a naked awareness---like a cloudless sky where 'silence' rules---then the experience becomes rewarding and subsequently memorable.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

Dream_Hacker
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Joined: 12 Mar 2018 13:25

Re: Visions and Thoughts

Postby Dream_Hacker » 12 Mar 2018 16:53

Summerlander wrote:I would argue, from meditative experience, that a thoughtless vision can have a great impact on memory, and that the pensive muddiness that is rumination promotes substandard consciousness and is thus less likely to have mnemonic impact.

If the mental chatter is less tortured and confused, if it's as simplistic as a naked awareness---like a cloudless sky where 'silence' rules---then the experience becomes rewarding and subsequently memorable.


I'd agree. I guess I didn't explain as deeply as the situation is. Just most people I feel personally are more adapted to remembering thoughts of events rather than the event itself and a thoughtless vision is just an event so mosts memory of it will be something they will not know how to recall in any meaningful way. Either way, thats just my observation of it all.

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Summerlander
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Re: Visions and Thoughts

Postby Summerlander » 31 Mar 2018 02:23

And I'd agree with your observation and you actually made a logical conclusion. I just wanted to point out some shades of grey about the nature of our minds.

Thoughts do indeed colour the memory of events. A lot happens to our brains in the aftermath of meaningful or meaningless events. Throughout our lives our noddles are constantly teased and bombarded with sensory input from our surroundings. Ceaselessly changing; nothing remains the same; memories will always be reconstructions, not pieces of information filed away in groups of neurons and dendrites.

The thoughtless experiences, however, can have an impact in a different way---they are unusual, often profound in the clarity they bring, and no amount of post-epiphanical thinking will be able to transcribe them into something meaningful. Thinking relates to---and is often, if not always, influenced by---worldly events.

The moments of thoughtless consciousness, whatever form they take, constitute a state of mind which is a direct translation of a perceptual truth about our extant condition that we may not be prepared for (as the memory of such visions often confounds us). The aftermath brain attempts to add thinking to the memory of said experience; the percepts of original events (both worldly and mental), however, were lost forever.

On the other hand, it is true that certain things we didn't give much thought to (or didn't pay much attention to) are deemed forgetful and thus harder to recall when called into question. In such cases, the brain doesn't 'feel' the need to make certain connections that will keep dull or useless concepts in mind. It depends on how much consciousness is devoted to an event, I suppose.

We are often swayed by our thoughts and tend to identify with them. It's as though they define us entirely. But this isn't true. One can observe thoughts coming and going from a purely observant, and certainly non-human, perspective. :geek:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Vivian+
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Re: Visions and Thoughts

Postby Vivian+ » 10 May 2018 14:33

I agree, they are not the same.

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Summerlander
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Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Visions and Thoughts

Postby Summerlander » 14 May 2018 21:01

I'd say they often 'fuel' each other's 'fire' but they are certainly not the same. And this distinction is noteworthy.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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