Lucid Dreamers and God

For those who wish to discuss the purely scientific aspects of sleep and dreams, including new research and future technologies.

Have you ever tried to communicate with God in the phase state (LD/OOBE/AP)?

Yes, and I was successful
5
9%
Yes, but nothing happened
2
4%
Yes, but what was encountered was a product of my mind
6
11%
No, but I am willing to try
28
50%
No, and I'm reluctant to try out of fear
0
No votes
No, and I never will (I'm an atheist who doesn't see any point)
15
27%
 
Total votes: 56

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buildit
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby buildit » 24 May 2015 16:53

So with a lot of weekend travel I had time to listen to the online version of the Selfish gene. Since you obviously like to simply twist my words to mean what you want them to say, as you did with my comment about symbiotic relationship of bacteria in the gut, I'll just say Dawkins doesn't back up what you say. In fact he says' he anthropomorphizes genes for the purposes of illustration.

The point is that individual organisms are not intrinsically selfish, as cynicism would hold. We observe altruism as well--how does cynicism explain this? And Dawkins obviously acknowledges this, and wrote a whole book explaining that genes, not individuals, are the intrinsically selfish operators in nature.


Several times he explains the personification of genes is for illustrative purposes only. So he is only attributing selfishness to genes to clarify the roll of evolution in the deterministic progression of the traits carried forward by DNA. Human altruism is in fact attributed for the good of the gene and is why he attributes the selfishness to the gene. This is a personification so in reality the selfishness is ours, the cynicism is ours. Dawkins says' in his first version "let us teach altruism" because even he had issues separating the vehicle from the operator. This is all fine and well for illustrative purposes.
Look at the cost benefit model he uses to account for altruistic behavior. While he acknowledges that individual organisms do not necessarily calculate this for their actions the accounting predicts what we see in nature. If it is to the benefit of the individual then that is the course followed weather it is feeding young or letting a runt die. We follow self interested nature that cost benefit analysis confirms.
Unlike a computer whose base programming can't change animals can alter their behavior on the fly based upon perceived benefits. The genes base commands predetermine an animals instinct but intelligence can over ride that. So being selfish by the nature of the base instructions from our genes doesn't mean we cannot find value in altruistic behavior and change. I might argue that intelligence has evolved because it allows for vessels to overcome genetic predisposition for selfishness finding better ways to ensure their genes are passed on.

In the end I found it a boring book with few insights not widely discussed and accepted already in many naturalist and genetic fields. It is a product of its time, where Jane Goodall was still wowing the world with insight into primate behavior, breaking down human preconceptions of our primate cousins being less like us than we would otherwise admit.

Here is the link to the audio book-->
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drCcUbP79AU
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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deschainXIX
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby deschainXIX » 24 May 2015 17:32

deschainXIX wrote:

"It's not really difficult to understand. Personification is a device used here to describe the "selfish" mechanism in nature, the component upon whom natural selection operates."

Did you... skim over this, buildit? Maybe read slower next time. Of course a gene is not literally sentient, and I never indicated that in the slightest. :lol:

You still don't seem to recognize that there is everywhere behavior that is not for the good of the individual, but good for the extenuation of the genotype. Or maybe you have, and you're just wriggling to make biology out to be "cynicism." But you're absolutely right that most of the time a selfish gene will produce a "survival machine" that is selfish. That doesn't mean, of course, that an organism is by definition egocentric. That's pure absurdity.

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Well said.

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buildit
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby buildit » 24 May 2015 20:38

That doesn't mean, of course, that an organism is by definition egocentric. That's pure absurdity.


Well, can you reason out the need people have for a personal deity if they if they are not inherently selfish? :lol:
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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deschainXIX
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby deschainXIX » 24 May 2015 23:09

It is difficult to discern whether that's a serious argument or you're just joshing with me. If it's serious, then you're making the ludicrous error of equating "every organism" to every human (and actually humans don't need a divine patriarch or regnant big brother, at the very least not on any intrinsic, biological level). Obviously if some other species had won the evolutionary lottery and become the intellectually-dominant organism on earth, it's improbable that it would evolve the human tendency to subjugate itself before centralized authority. Indeed, a critical criterion of biospheric dominance is the ability of a particular species to form a community within itself in which altruism is the scepter of society (though I cede that altruism in the form of society-building is merely masked self preservation). Consider the nature of the entomological world, for example. The social and/or legal system of arthropods like ants and bees is in essence an autocracy, with the individual as nothing, and the good of the (genotypic) population as everything; the bee's sting in defense of the hive mother is of course lethal to the individual. How would a cynical surveillance of biology support organisms like this?

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Well said.

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buildit
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby buildit » 25 May 2015 00:26

deschainXIX wrote:It is difficult to discern whether that's a serious argument or you're just joshing with me.

Totally joking if not poking you in the ribs with it due to the irony. :lol: I still disagree and put the primal basic nature of life as being selfish.


Consider the nature of the entomological world, for example. The social and/or legal system of arthropods like ants and bees is in essence an autocracy, with the individual as nothing, and the good of the (genotypic) population as everything; the bee's sting in defense of the hive mother is of course lethal to the individual. How would a cynical surveillance of biology support organisms like this?

I suppose you have to consider the effect that pheromones have on an individual will in insects. Like druging a human and making them a slave they have no free will thru external control. In fact the control thru chemicals aspect plays out all over the world and is even supported by genealogy which is now reliant upon it. I say philosophically the only way to overcome the selfish nature of life is intelligence. I think Dawkins had it right the first time when he said we need to teach altruism.
I mean the ideas used are fine for the analogy of the evolution of genotypes but it isn't an all encompassing work and certainly is dated by modern papers that go far further. Dawkins surely understands this reality as he planted his flag into the holes Darwin left unfilled. ;) You might enjoy Why Big Fierce Animals Are Rare by Paul Colinvaux though. I read that my freshman year for my Ecology class and remember it was enlightening.
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Summerlander » 25 May 2015 00:47

We tried, Deschain.

Buildit, what sort of intelligent designer (such as your dear Yahweh) would create beings who squander millions of sperm cells every time they ejaculate (whether it's onanism or copulation, the waste is guaranteed)? Why don't we only produce a few effective seeds guaranteed to successfully fertilise women? If God exists He must me retarded if this is what He intended, because, from where I'm standing, He'd do Himself a favour if He said the cosmos is an experiment gone wrong. He better be the Creator described in deism if He is to avoid any embarassment. And please take your time reading The Selfish Gene.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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buildit
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby buildit » 25 May 2015 14:37

I guess the same God who forgot to fill all of space with breathable air so we could fly to new worlds without fear of suffocation. :roll:
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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deschainXIX
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby deschainXIX » 25 May 2015 15:43

Especially when one considers how insistent Yahweh is upon sexual asceticism. So much fertile sperm ... for so little use--it's like some absurd practice joke! :D

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Well said.

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buildit
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby buildit » 25 May 2015 16:06

deschainXIX wrote:Especially when one considers how insistent Yahweh is upon sexual asceticism. So much fertile sperm ... for so little use--it's like some absurd practice joke! :D


I'm confused about why you think this world should be perfect?
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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deschainXIX
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby deschainXIX » 25 May 2015 16:57

Only a weird, sadomasochistic psychopath wouldn't wish for a perfect world. The answer to this question is a simple one, and there is no room for quasi-humorous, guerrilla wriggling. And there are those pseudo-intellectuals who, to make themselves out to have unique, radical, or interesting perspectives, claim that a perfect world could not exist. This is idiocy. When you posit an omnipotent, omniscient, totally-benevolent deity, then the rational next question is, What, was he drunk when he created the universe? We're not even necessarily asking for a "perfect world" (you're the one who brought that up, buildit), but even a high schooler like myself could design an infinitely better one. And those dreary, regressive stoics who cantillate on about how "Suffering is a necessary evil" are (and I say this seriously) so stupid they don't know they're alive, so don't mention it.

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Well said.


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