Lucid Dreamers and God

For those who wish to discuss the purely scientific aspects of sleep and dreams, including new research and future technologies.

Have you ever tried to communicate with God in the phase state (LD/OOBE/AP)?

Yes, and I was successful
5
9%
Yes, but nothing happened
2
4%
Yes, but what was encountered was a product of my mind
7
12%
No, but I am willing to try
28
49%
No, and I'm reluctant to try out of fear
0
No votes
No, and I never will (I'm an atheist who doesn't see any point)
15
26%
 
Total votes: 57

Enra Traz
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Enra Traz » 01 Jun 2015 16:18

I told you before, I am a time-traveller from a possible future (I must say "possible" from this temporal dimension's perspective given the nature of quantum mechanics). And your Thomas Jefferson quote is no reason to get cocky.

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deschainXIX
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby deschainXIX » 01 Jun 2015 19:56

(I haven't gotten around to watching the whole video yet.)

Well, that's all very interesting and educational, Traz, but I don't see one strand of chewing gum attaching the two postulations, "Infinity is weird," and "There is an independent metaphysical entity that either created the universe, is the universe, or cares about humans" to each other. Isn't it more likely that infinity is a mere construct erected by bored mathematicians? Especially when one subscribes to (as I do) the philosophical camp of mathematical fictionalism. Mathematics is nothing more than a language we can use to conceptualize and understand the world with our mammalian brains. It's not something that exists outside the human experience. Just as one can use any fabricated word to identify an object, one can also select an infinite number of units to use in describing the dimensions of that object. (One apple equals one apple, but the atoms that compose these mathematically distinct and equal bodies are certainly not equal. By the way, what even is a "point in space" but a gross and infinitely inaccurate approximation? Yet mathematics does launch rockets into space, so perhaps what we need instead is closer to mathematical Platonism.)

I could make the pantheistic statement, "God is everything that exists," but this is a purely linguistic assertion, and why would one ever care to make it, outside of some poetic, Einsteinian sphere? Keep ontology and poetics separate, please! And, Enra, even if this God was "good" (whatever that means), why still would we worship it? I insist on the pronoun "it" because a sexually dimorphic deity is absurd in my mind; of course, a deity at all is absurd--it has the fingerprints of anthropic origin all over it.

Also, if we're going to make linguistic assertions, it is necessary to examine words. A miracle is something that violates the laws of physics. Would my taking a single step and thus traversing an infinite distance be a violation of physics? No, I don't see how so.

I hold to Nietzsche's perspective on atheists: that they are not nearly "atheistic" enough. That, indeed, they can be just as absurd as theists. We are not truly free thinkers until we divorce ourselves from every assumption, every conviction, every faith ... even faith in truth. There is no argument for Truth, any more than there is an argument for God, or reality, or ideals.

So, Traz, even forgetting the fact that time travel is an illogical paradox, you're clearly not from the future. Elizabeth Warren is (regrettably) not even running for presidency. I have my trusty razor of old Ockham ready in hand, and no matter what excuse you make for this, it will always be eminently less probable than the possibility that Summerlander made a misjudgment in the realm of speculative American politics. :mrgreen:

So is this Summerlander or his wife?

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Well said.

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Summerlander » 01 Jun 2015 20:33

You son of a... :mrgreen:

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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deschainXIX
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Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby deschainXIX » 02 Jun 2015 02:31

What, you think I'd forget? I take these things very seriously, you know. :D

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Well said.

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Summerlander » 04 Jun 2015 22:45

I think the belief in God hinders progress in applying lucid dreaming effectively.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

Enra Traz
Posts: 310
Joined: 28 Nov 2014 10:55

Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Enra Traz » 08 Jun 2015 00:40

You guys are ridiculous. Summerlander, you can stop pretending you're me. You wish! In the future we have machines that make people lucid dream and it's fine to believe in God.

Deschain, familiarise yourself with "Buridan's Ass" and remember Leibniz's "apex of rationality." This principle is used to argue that God is the only reason that is sufficient enough to explain the existence of the universe -- and Himself. If He necessarily exists, He is His own sufficient reason. In this vein, we need a sufficient and relevant reason for everything we do. We can, and often should, act without reason. (You think time travel is impossible, but, look at me--a time traveller--and you don't know everything about reality.)

To be rational, sometimes we should act irrationally, or non-rationally--without a reason for every feature of the actions performed.

God believers... Are ya with me? :-P

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Snaggle
Posts: 554
Joined: 02 Oct 2011 13:08

Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Snaggle » 08 Jun 2015 05:58

Summerland has had his brain cut in two and one half has a separate female personality :lol:
"There is only one God and his name is Death.
And there is only one thing we say to death "not today"
- Syrio Forel

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deschainXIX
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby deschainXIX » 10 Jun 2015 00:44

Leibniz? Teleology in science surely has been eliminated in the future, seeing as Islam is generally more at ease with unfettered inquiry than Christianity is. Leibniz grants a deity a priori, and bases his thought around that assumption--it's not the other way around. So citing Leibniz as proof of God probably wouldn't make sense even to Leibniz. Leibniz and his theory, anyway, just seem like another pathetic excuse to sustain a fear of chance and meaninglessness; we know that humans love suffering, it's meaningless suffering that they can't stand and will do all they can to rationalize. Can't that be a sufficient reason for the precise nature of man's obsession with deities? Surely you can't mean that "Since the God hypothesis exists, God as posited by the hypothesis must exist." That's absurdity of the finest quality, Traz, and I think you've been blinded by what sounds like a pretty theocratic society (we've invented time travel, though, apparently).

Simply because we cannot always behave totally rationally (which I don't cede in the first place) doesn't mean that we shouldn't constantly strive to be as rational as possible. That's like saying "Because we haven't always been good in the past, we should now totally abandon all effort to be totally good; because it's impossible." What a hoax! Buridan's ass is absurd because a hungry ass put in such a position would simply move toward the food source it sees first. That may seem reductionist, but we know that animals behave this way. Humans are no different. And the principle itself is just as absurd--never could two moral objects be inherently equal, and even if they were you are making no violation of "morality" (I scoff at the word) to simply choose one at random.

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Well said.

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Summerlander » 10 Jun 2015 18:55

deschainXIX wrote:Leibniz? Teleology in science surely has been eliminated in the future, seeing as Islam is generally more at ease with unfettered inquiry than Christianity is. Leibniz grants a deity a priori, and bases his thought around that assumption--it's not the other way around. So citing Leibniz as proof of God probably wouldn't make sense even to Leibniz. Leibniz and his theory, anyway, just seem like another pathetic excuse to sustain a fear of chance and meaninglessness; we know that humans love suffering, it's meaningless suffering that they can't stand and will do all they can to rationalize. Can't that be a sufficient reason for the precise nature of man's obsession with deities? Surely you can't mean that "Since the God hypothesis exists, God as posited by the hypothesis must exist." That's absurdity of the finest quality, Traz, and I think you've been blinded by what sounds like a pretty theocratic society (we've invented time travel, though, apparently).


I can't stand teleological arguments, either. Next she will tell us that the Gaia hypothesis is a well constructed scientific theory that has stood the test of future time. Sounds like she is telling porkies on that front, anyway... Unless, of course, she comes from a universe effected by different physical laws and a teleological system applies -- which makes its inhabitants believe in Allah more fervently. :mrgreen:

deschainXIX wrote:Simply because we cannot always behave totally rationally (which I don't cede in the first place) doesn't mean that we shouldn't constantly strive to be as rational as possible. That's like saying "Because we haven't always been good in the past, we should now totally abandon all effort to be totally good; because it's impossible." What a hoax! Buridan's ass is absurd because a hungry ass put in such a position would simply move toward the food source it sees first. That may seem reductionist, but we know that animals behave this way. Humans are no different. And the principle itself is just as absurd--never could two moral objects be inherently equal, and even if they were you are making no violation of "morality" (I scoff at the word) to simply choose one at random.


Unless, of course, Buridan's Ass decides to arse about. :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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buildit
Posts: 482
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby buildit » 12 Jun 2015 03:19

Those funny moments in life when Freud hangs you out to dry and you tell someone you are reading "Charles Dawkins". :lol:

I know some here will get a laugh. ;)
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?


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