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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Posted: 28 Nov 2014 18:00
by Derpybunneh
Summerlander wrote:Firstly, everything in this universe works with the presumption of such a being. Secondly, things never used to be like this. Evolution, carried by the blind forces of nature, resulted in what we see today. And things are still changing. Thirdly, perfect order and place? Really? Because Earth is so hospitable with its natural catastrophes, right? (Sarcasm intended.) Check the OP and see where I've already pointed out how the universe is mostly a waste and how scientists can already conceive of a better world once they contemplate all of nature's haphazard mistakes.

If you say God is the universe, you must mean it in the symbolic sense. Because the almighty literal sense where He judges us is yet to be drmonstrated. (And a god of this nature would be vile and not worth worshipping.) Whichever way you mean it, IT is very imperfect.:-D

I don't see any evidence for God whatsoever there I do not believe. If He is and He made me, then He is pretty dumb. Why create atheists? lol

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Why would it be dumb if he created you? He created humans after his own image, and they did not come from monkeys. It would be dumb if we were evolved from monkeys.

Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Posted: 28 Nov 2014 18:10
by Summerlander
It would be dumb of a creator to create beings who do not believe in him. Also, does he create psychopaths in his image? lol. Well, he must do if he wipes out men women and children with tsunamis...:-D

We did not come from monkeys. You are right. But humans and monkeys do share a distant common ancestor that was ape-like. Darwin's theory is an established fact as supported by untold scientific evidence. His cousin also gave the religious the benefit of the doubt by testing the effectiveness of praying and found it to be ineffective.

You say you know that we were created in God's imagine. Tell me, have you ever seen Him? Is He shaped like the universe or like a human being? Why not a cockroach? What have you got to bring to the table other than what many people are told in their childhood which so lame and cliched: "We are made in the lord image." "Santa is watching you." "The tooth fairy will come while you sleep."

Oh dear...

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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Posted: 28 Nov 2014 18:22
by Derpybunneh
Summerlander wrote:It would be dumb of a creator to create beings who do not believe in him. Also, does he create psychopaths in his image? lol. Well, he must do if he wipes out men women and children with tsunamis...:-D

We did not come from monkeys. You are right. But humans and monkeys do share a distant common ancestor that was ape-like. Darwin's theory is an established fact as supported by untold scientific evidence. His cousin also gave the religious the benefit of the doubt by testing the effectiveness of praying and found it to be ineffective.

You say you know that we were created in God's imagine. Tell me, have you ever seen Him? Is He shaped like the universe or like a human being? Why not a cockroach? What have you got to bring to the table other than what many people are told in their childhood which so lame and cliched: "We are made in the lord image." "Santa is watching you." "The tooth fairy will come while you sleep."

Oh dear...

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God created all humans, whether they believe in him or not. They get to choose if they want to believe in their creator. It is not dumb that he did this. He was sending us to earth so we could gain a physical body and become like him, if we choose. With my physical eyes, I have never seen God. But you, me, and everyone has seen God before we were born. We just don't have any memory of it. God cares about all of his children. God allows bad things to happen to us and others. If he did not allow this, we could not become like him. It's all apart of living life. Bad things happen.

Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Posted: 28 Nov 2014 18:31
by Summerlander
He allows bad things to happen to people? Gulp! He's so good, isn't He! :-D

God made us. Gives us a choice to suffer. Sure. There is so much evidence for that. :-)

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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Posted: 28 Nov 2014 19:24
by Derpybunneh
Summerlander wrote:He allows bad things to happen to people? Gulp! He's so good, isn't He! :-D

God made us. Gives us a choice to suffer. Sure. There is so much evidence for that. :-)

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Look, it is not God's fault that we suffer. It happens just because that's the way the world is. Bad stuff happens also because of other's choices, and sometimes God does send bad stuff because he is trying to teach us or trying to wipe out extremely bad people (not saying that the people who get killed by tsunamis are bad). e need to have opposition, otherwise it would be pointless even to exist. It's his way of testing us to see if we will be faithful to him or not. John 16:33, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

I know these things because I belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons).

Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Posted: 28 Nov 2014 23:49
by Summerlander
According to your unwarranted belief, the world is the way it is because GOD MADE IT SO. Therefore He is responsible for all the evil in the world. Thus, we logically conclude that He can't possibly be a perfectly good god.

They say He is the creator of everything: omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Therefore one cannot say He gave us free will or that bad things happen independently of God. He authored everything if He is all-powerful and omnipresent. Thus, if you really believe in God, you must also believe that tsunami victims deserved to suffer and die because God thought it best. Tens of thousands in one swoop, men, women and children...babies included...

So you're a Mormon? Is that the best you got? The word of one conman Joseph Smith, a fraudster, a lunatic and compulsive liar with a penchant for underage girls and several wives...

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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Posted: 29 Nov 2014 02:32
by Derpybunneh
Summerlander wrote:According to your unwarranted belief, the world is the way it is because GOD MADE IT SO. Therefore He is responsible for all the evil in the world. Thus, we logically conclude that He can't possibly be a perfectly good god.

They say He is the creator of everything: omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Therefore one cannot say He gave us free will or that bad things happen independently of God. He authored everything if He is all-powerful and omnipresent. Thus, if you really believe in God, you must also believe that tsunami victims deserved to suffer and die because God thought it best. Tens of thousands in one swoop, men, women and children...babies included...

So you're a Mormon? Is that the best you got? The word of one conman Joseph Smith, a fraudster, a lunatic and compulsive liar with a penchant for underage girls and several wives...

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Tsunamis are caused by weather. Only rarely God would send a tsunami. God is the perfectly good God. He is the most just person in the world. More just than the supposed "just" people here. He gives everyone a fair chance to choose if they will follow him or not. He IS the one who gave us free will to choose evil or good. Joseph Smith is NOT a fraudster, lunatic, and liar. He translated the Gold Plates into the Book of Mormon. There is evidence that he did not make that book up.

Read this, 1 Nephi 8:2, "And it came to pass that while my father tarried in the wilderness he spake unto us, saying: Behold, I have dreamed a dream; or, in other words, I have seen a vision."

Dreamed a dream. That part is redundant. The English in Joseph Smith's time would not be like that. It would be more like this, "I had a dream." The scripture above is proof that JS (Joseph Smith) did not make the book up.

Even if he was a polygamist, it does not really change my view on him. The culture was different back then.

Boy, I love arguing about religion. :lol:

Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Posted: 29 Nov 2014 09:56
by Summerlander
Scripture is not proof of anything. It is manmade. A fabrication. I see no evidence. Only written lies. And the culture was different but we have improved our lives since and are more protective of children. And I would beware of those who are religious and hang around children a lot. Even at a time when people were backwards and racist (so was Smith) he managed to land himself in jail. And you're telling me his word and what he claims to have found is solid? Ok. :-D

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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Posted: 29 Nov 2014 16:00
by Derpybunneh
Summerlander wrote:Scripture is not proof of anything. It is manmade. A fabrication. I see no evidence. Only written lies. And the culture was different but we have improved our lives since and are more protective of children. And I would beware of those who are religious and hang around children a lot. Even at a time when people were backwards and racist (so was Smith) he managed to land himself in jail. And you're telling me his word and what he claims to have found is solid? Ok. :-D

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Scripture is proof. The book is not a lie. Joseph Smith was falsely accused and put in prison because he was the prophet of God, because of his beliefs, and people did not like him. He was treated unjustly by unbelievers and mobs, just because of what he believed.

Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Posted: 29 Nov 2014 17:22
by deschainXIX
Derpybunneh, look at what you're saying. Observe it, dissect it, and think about it for yourself. FOR YOURSELF--that's the important part.

"Scripture is proof." "The book is not a lie."
These are dogmas that have been drilled into your skull so deep that you do not question them anymore. They are preconceived notions, pure ideas that have no evidence or reasoning behind them to state that they are true. You're saying, "I believe what I believe because the scripture is correct, and the scripture is correct because the scripture is correct," and, "The book is not a lie because I have lived my entire life by the book, and it's fallacy would mean my entire life has been a lie."

If we can accept things without evidence, where are we exactly? If we can accept without evidence, why do you discount Islam? Or Methodism? Or Hinduism? I can make whatever claim I like, and you cannot refute me because having evidence doesn't matter to you. The Easter bunny is real. I can fly like Superman (but only when no one is looking). Et cetera...

Do you not see the flaw in your mindset?

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