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Re: Life after death?

Posted: 14 Oct 2014 00:58
by buildit
Summerlander wrote:But you are doing exactly that. You are ignoring that which doesn't fit your worldview. Only what you ignore is based on science, reason and facts.


It might seem that way but I am a scientist and have two degrees in it. So I know the textbook, religion is evil, when we die that it the rest is all hippy crap for drug addicts. :roll: But then until I discovered there was a lot of people who control their dreams and not just me, this was all hocus pocus crap too. So now I HAVE to entertain ideas outside the text books or think you are all lying and I am lying to myself.

So are you lying to me? ;)

Re: Life after death?

Posted: 14 Oct 2014 01:53
by Summerlander
nesgirl, what you said is quite oxymoronic. How can an unconscious person lucid dream? If you are unconscious, you are not aware of anything. There is no conscious experience. I'll make this simple by pointing out lucid dreaming's other name: conscious dreaming.

See the contrast? :-D

Now, buildit. First you don't talk like a scientist. But even if you were a renowned scientist, like the numbnut who founded the genome project and was appointed by Obama to head the science department, it still wouldn't make you right or honest or a genius.

If you are not following scientific procedure in your experiments you will get found out. Your peers will want to replicate your experiments to test the veracity of what you found. The scientific community often competes for prizes and recognition!

You could also be a great scientist and still express religiosity. How some can say that they believe in God and an afterlife is a mystery to me. So I sometimes examine what they are about to find out how they can leave their supposed beliefs outside the lab. You know what I usually come across? That they are either lying to keep their religious families happy or they have political agendas. Either way, they are often laughed at by their no-nonsense, more reasonable colleagues who can see right through the bullshit: I use science to study the world, but use faith to believe in the supernatural.

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Re: Life after death?

Posted: 14 Oct 2014 02:16
by Summerlander
I think you are confused. And if you did dream it must have been during the coming to stage - not the period of unconsciousness. It makes no sense.

Anyway, lucid dreaming is not evidence for an afterlife. Never has been, never will be.

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Re: Life after death?

Posted: 14 Oct 2014 18:51
by Summerlander
No it was definitely while I was unconscious, evidenced because in one of them, I heard the doctors say he was going to flash a bright light in my eyes. This was while I was unconscious.


If you heard the doctors talking, you were aware of sound, their presence, and your situation. If you were aware, you were conscious.

Am I the only one here who sees sense? :mrgreen:

I even told him he said that. Now how could I have possibly known THAT if I was completely unconscious?


Let's say you were unconscious at the time. Your doctor speaks, sound waves travel to your ears and into your brain. It has an effect on brain activity even while you are unconscious. Neurons still register the sound data. When you came to (consciousness enters the scene), the sound data is reported as a "memory" when it actual fact consciousness is just catching up with cerebral alterations that occurred during the unconscious state.

See? No need to postulate a supernatural out-of-body state or the existence of a soul that works independent of bodies and still perceives. :D

And Unconscious Lucid Dreaming doesn't imply evidence for an afterlife Summerland. I know that other people besides myself and others have been able to dream/Lucid Dream unconsciously. I cannot be wrong, because if there are so many surgery stories out there, there obviously is something going on inside an unconscious person's brain.


There is no such thing as an unconscious lucid dream. You can, however, have lucid dreams and not remember them if you don't jot them down in your journal (but later you may recall snippets). This, I'm sorry to say, wasn't your case. You claim that you were conscious during unconsciousness which is not making any sense. :?

Also, as I have mentioned before, NDEs are not proof. After a traumatic experience such as a car accident, about 20% of patients report having had a conscious experience while they were "out." Such experiences didn't necessarily occur when they had minimal brain activity. While they were coming to, blood flow probably caused REM bursts of activity. During this peculiar state they would hallucinate all sorts. They would also perceive time distortions. The mind would work in trying to make sense of what happened to them and a traumatically forced dream state, as the brain struggles into consciousness, would fill the gaps with any fantasy such as the afterlife.

Typical feelings of comfort follow as endorphins are released. They feel they don't fear death any more. They think they are immortal from the epiphany they experienced. It's very solipsistic and egocentric. The mind reverts to an attractive form of deluded survival instinct, like a child thinking everything will always be okay because mummy and daddy are there... :mrgreen:

The remaining 80% of patients report nothing (either they have no souls or the impact of the physical trauma just differed greatly from the others - you make up your mind!). It is funny that nobody is making a claim that there is no afterlife based on the 80%. Why is it that so much significance is assigned to the measly 20%?

Confirmation bias. 8-)

Re: Life after death?

Posted: 14 Oct 2014 21:09
by Summerlander
So you can hear while unconscious?


No, you can't hear when you are unconscious. You have missed the point again. Sound waves reach your brain but haven't reached consciousness yet because this one is not present. Consciousness gets updated once it emerges. Then you "remember" the sounds as though you were conscious at the time. but this memory is only what has been reported to consciousness.

If the EEG measured me as unconscious when I was conscious


You were NOT conscious... arrrghhhhh! :lol:

Also, maybe you stumbled upon some visual, coincidental hits when it came to the immediate environment. I don't know. If you think there is something there, gather your evidence. You might just prove the afterlife after all! :D

Re: Life after death?

Posted: 14 Oct 2014 22:56
by deschainXIX
You all are dealing in terms of "consciousness" and "unconsciousness." If an electroencephalogram says that you are "unconscious," then you are by definition unconscious. Consciousness, linguistically, is simply a measure of brainwave frequencies. It is blatantly oxymoronic nonsense to say that "the machine read me as unconscious, but I was conscious." (Even if you could somehow know when exactly you were conscious and the machine "read you as unconscious.") Specialist anesthesiologists tailor exhaustive plans of action specifically for various patients, and then work methodically with a variety of drugs to ease you slowly down into lower brainwave frequencies until you are totally oblivious of everything. It's not like they simply flick a switch and you're immediately unconscious. That's dangerous. There is plenty of space in all that progression to account for some hypnagogic feedback to be experienced. I would be very concerned if a technical physician failed at effectively administering sedation during surgery, allowing you to not only dream but lucid dream during a procedure :lol:

Re: Life after death?

Posted: 14 Oct 2014 23:40
by Summerlander
Thanks, deschainXIX! I was out of breath already! :lol:

So it's not just me who noticed the oxymoron...(phew!) :mrgreen:

Re: Life after death?

Posted: 15 Oct 2014 00:18
by buildit
deschainXIX wrote:You all are dealing in terms of "consciousness" and "unconsciousness." If an electroencephalogram says that you are "unconscious," then you are by definition unconscious. Consciousness, linguistically, is simply a measure of brainwave frequencies. It is blatantly oxymoronic nonsense to say that "the machine read me as unconscious, but I was conscious." (Even if you could somehow know when exactly you were conscious and the machine "read you as unconscious.") Specialist anesthesiologists tailor exhaustive plans of action specifically for various patients, and then work methodically with a variety of drugs to ease you slowly down into lower brainwave frequencies until you are totally oblivious of everything. It's not like they simply flick a switch and you're immediately unconscious. That's dangerous. There is plenty of space in all that progression to account for some hypnagogic feedback to be experienced. I would be very concerned if a technical physician failed at effectively administering sedation during surgery, allowing you to not only dream but lucid dream during a procedure :lol:

Trouble with this argument is that we don't KNOW what causes consciousness. After all how do you explain people who have been in Coma saying they could hear their doctors, friends and family talking to them? Again instruments are not specific enough to make these sweeping claims you have made.

Re: Life after death?

Posted: 16 Oct 2014 16:10
by Summerlander
@ buildit:

Trouble with this argument is that we don't KNOW what causes consciousness. After all how do you explain people who have been in Coma saying they could hear their doctors, friends and family talking to them? Again instruments are not specific enough to make these sweeping claims you have made.


The brain creates consciousness. What we are yet to figure out is how. And we are already getting some clues. and in case you have missed it, I have already offered a very plausible explanation on the previous page when I was discussing with nesgirl her very experience.

And the instruments that do not dig deep enough are those of hospitals. Hence the term "no detectable brain activity." In the lab, it is a different story as all sorts of cerebral reverberations can be measured. Again, you surprise me as a scientist. You should know this already.

@ nesgirl:

Explain then how some people are able to dream about their surgeries DURING their surgeries, I am not the only one. They may not be Lucid Dreams then, and be just ordinary dreams, but they can still be dreams and possibly be controlled anyways. See my cousin was able to dream while having her wisdom teeth removed. Peter had many dreams during his. And other people have had surgery dreams.


If someone has suffered a trauma insofar as the near-death impact goes, and, in the process of coming to consciously dreams up an afterlife where the accident is remembered, it is not surprising for the brain to concoct a schema where the individual is being fixed in a hospital. Hence, the surgery hallucination that happens to coincide with the logical scenario of doctors battling to save the patient in reality.

You can also explain something to me: Why is it that no experienced out-of-body traveller has gone on a show like that of James Randi and proved once and for all that out-of-body states, in their literal sense, really do occur? All they have to do is have an OOBE, observe a number in the real world that is physically out of sight of the subject, successfully repeat the experiment to rule out coincidence, and at the end of which they can claim the one million dollars on offer. 8-)

Not to mention before I woke up from consciousness in both situations, I could tell exactly which side of me the doctor was on. Before I lost consciousness during the EEG, the doctor was on my right side. After I regained it, he was on my left side, and I knew instinctively to look on my left side.


Oh, come on! :lol:

Your unconscious brain received sound waves from a particular direction. Vestibular and proprioceptive data was recorded before being reported to consciousness at the time when this one arose (you came to). You are still not taking into account my plausible explanation and seem to be biased by buildit's afterlife fantasy. Also, how many times the doctor moved back and forth, left to right and vice versa during the op... :mrgreen:

Re: Life after death?

Posted: 24 Oct 2014 04:04
by buildit
Summerlander wrote:And the instruments that do not dig deep enough are those of hospitals. Hence the term "no detectable brain activity." In the lab, it is a different story as all sorts of cerebral reverberations can be measured. Again, you surprise me as a scientist. You should know this already.


So yes equipment will vary, however, in general a hospitals equipment must meet a minimum level of detection. So for most "deaths" in hospitals or operating rooms we must look at the minimum. A. body stops breathing on it's own B. Heart stops beating on it's own and C. body become unresponsive to any external stimuli.
Like with all detection based science you must ask, "How small is zero and can we detect it". In terms of the macro observable "death" we are much more confident than when dealing with laboratory death.