Lucid dream vs Astral projection

If you're new to lucid dreaming, browse this forum for answers to your questions, or post and ask for specific tips on getting started.
Elcapitano51
Posts: 5
Joined: 11 Jul 2018 04:16

Lucid dream vs Astral projection

Postby Elcapitano51 » 12 Jul 2018 06:41

I’ve heard both terms used, but what is the difference between a lucid dream (or regular dream for that matter) and an astral projection?

User avatar
Solaris_142
Posts: 208
Joined: 02 Jul 2018 12:16

Re: Lucid dream vs Astral projection

Postby Solaris_142 » 12 Jul 2018 14:54

Just depends on what you believe. A dream lucid or not most people generally believe takes place inside your brain. Not a spiritual realm.

Astral projection is believed to be leaving your body altogether. But the brain easily simulates experiences that seem like you leave your body that are dreams. Especially during WILD techniques. There is a lot of controversy on the subject.

There are some that believe that there is no such thing as astral projection at all and that every single case of it is simply just a dream taking place inside ones head. And the person experiencing it is just being fooled by their brain into thinking they are leaving their bodies. And others that believe that all dreams are spiritual in nature and actually take place in spirit realm.

I don't think that there is any real proof either way so it's up to the individual to decide what they think they are experiencing.
Previously known in other dreaming communities as Caradon.

User avatar
SpaceTimeBadass
Posts: 13
Joined: 06 Sep 2015 17:33
Location: U.S.
Contact:

Re: Lucid dream vs Astral projection

Postby SpaceTimeBadass » 12 Jul 2018 19:52

I'd have to disagree with the above. I'd say it definitely does not depend on what you believe. Facts are not dependent upon beliefs; they are true whether or not we believe them. There are facts to be known about these states of consciousness, but we do not as yet have an answer as to if they are the same thing or different things. The "Astral Realm" cannot be proven/disproven in the conventional sense (but you can empirically test it and prove it anecdotally to yourself), just like every other posited spiritual claim from Christianity to the Giant Spaghetti Monster. Regardless of if these experiences happen in another dimension of reality, it's clear that they do occur in the mind as we can measure the brain activity during dreams. We know there is definitely something going on in the mind during these experiences, so we can look at it from that perspective without looking at belief.

I've posted a few videos about this on my channel. I think probably my best case for this is in "The Astral Rejection of Koi Fresco", but essentially WILD and APs/OBEs all occur with the same process. Why would the same process give you two different experiences? It seems to me that simply changing your point of focus from either your breath or the back of your eyelids, in WILD, to something like climbing a rope for AP, would do nothing but change the way you experience the start of your dream.

There are some people who think that OBEs/APs might be more likely to occur in non-REM sleep, which does make some sense to me. It could be true that they are in fact different experiences, but I think making the case for them happening in another dimension, in some sort of spiritual body, takes a lot more presuppositions than thinking they all happen in the mind. But, if the only difference is that they are in NREM sleep, then we would have to make sure that we are inducing the out of body experience at a time when we aren't likely to enter REM when we sleep. But, then if the only difference is that it's happening in NREM instead of REM, then why even have another definition? Dreams can happen in both REM and NREM and we still call them dreams.

This is a messy topic and will continue to be a debate for quite some time, I'm sure. Just my two cents, but hopefully it helps answer something for you.
Oneironaut, Writer, & Content Creator. Fan of science, reason, and consciousness exploration.

User avatar
Solaris_142
Posts: 208
Joined: 02 Jul 2018 12:16

Re: Lucid dream vs Astral projection

Postby Solaris_142 » 13 Jul 2018 05:39

Well that was my point "Can't be proved or disproven." So depends on the belief of the one experiencing it. Completely agree one might be able to prove it to one self though. But still will be that persons belief of what they experienced. I'm all for finding the real proof of it though. If there is some I've not heard of it yet.

Not trying to make an argument on the subject either though. I have my own perspective on things and I don't like wasting my time on spiritual type arguments on forums or in real life because it is a waste of time. At least to me it is. The OP just wanted to know the difference between what astral projection and dreams is supposed to be. And many people have different "beliefs" on the subject. Which I was pointing out :)
Previously known in other dreaming communities as Caradon.

User avatar
SpaceTimeBadass
Posts: 13
Joined: 06 Sep 2015 17:33
Location: U.S.
Contact:

Re: Lucid dream vs Astral projection

Postby SpaceTimeBadass » 13 Jul 2018 16:34

Solaris_142 wrote:Well that was my point "Can't be proved or disproven." So depends on the belief of the one experiencing it. Completely agree one might be able to prove it to one self though. But still will be that persons belief of what they experienced. I'm all for finding the real proof of it though. If there is some I've not heard of it yet.

Not trying to make an argument on the subject either though. I have my own perspective on things and I don't like wasting my time on spiritual type arguments on forums or in real life because it is a waste of time. At least to me it is. The OP just wanted to know the difference between what astral projection and dreams is supposed to be. And many people have different "beliefs" on the subject. Which I was pointing out :)



Haha, sorry, I've gotten to be a bit of a hardass on terminology lately. On proof, I think testing the astral empirically yourself is sufficient, although it would be interesting to see what conventional proof might be if otherwise possible. I know people have all sorts of explanations for why they can't reliably relay even basic information (like color or form) when they go out of body. If one could OBE and decided to ask a friend to write a word in a random color of ink, on a sheet of paper and place it face up on a table in another room and to keep it secret, if they went out of body they would soon find that it was all in their mind (or they would feel cognitive dissonance). But there are all sorts of rationalizations people can make if the belief is important to them. The main one I get is that "its another dimension; things differ" which just so conveniently makes it unfalsifiable. But, if it were another dimension there would be potential to gain information from the state via other beings/humans or what have you, so there's another way it could be tested personally.

This is a debate that I'm still talking myself out of, as it's all so clear when you actually begin to apply the scientific method as best you possibly can. There's either a simple motivational problem or cognitive bias in most cases of spiritual people encountering a means to test it one their own. Generally it's pretty obvious the experience itself serves as proof to people and you can't really make someone value something they don't, so you're right it's very much a waste of time and here I am two paragraphs deep again. Argh
Oneironaut, Writer, & Content Creator. Fan of science, reason, and consciousness exploration.

User avatar
Solaris_142
Posts: 208
Joined: 02 Jul 2018 12:16

Re: Lucid dream vs Astral projection

Postby Solaris_142 » 17 Jul 2018 15:32

SpaceTimeBadass wrote:
Haha, sorry, I've gotten to be a bit of a hardass on terminology lately. On proof, I think testing the astral empirically yourself is sufficient, although it would be interesting to see what conventional proof might be if otherwise possible. I know people have all sorts of explanations for why they can't reliably relay even basic information (like color or form) when they go out of body. If one could OBE and decided to ask a friend to write a word in a random color of ink, on a sheet of paper and place it face up on a table in another room and to keep it secret, if they went out of body they would soon find that it was all in their mind (or they would feel cognitive dissonance). But there are all sorts of rationalizations people can make if the belief is important to them. The main one I get is that "its another dimension; things differ" which just so conveniently makes it unfalsifiable. But, if it were another dimension there would be potential to gain information from the state via other beings/humans or what have you, so there's another way it could be tested personally.

This is a debate that I'm still talking myself out of, as it's all so clear when you actually begin to apply the scientific method as best you possibly can. There's either a simple motivational problem or cognitive bias in most cases of spiritual people encountering a means to test it one their own. Generally it's pretty obvious the experience itself serves as proof to people and you can't really make someone value something they don't, so you're right it's very much a waste of time and here I am two paragraphs deep again. Argh



Well mainly I consider spiritual arguments a waste of time (especially on the internet where it takes even longer to type it all out) unless it's for people that just enjoy wasting time to no purpose lol. People will believe what they believe and are not likely to change those beliefs based on someone else's opinion no matter how much the other person wants to shove their own beliefs down another persons throat. People can go back and forth bickering their spiritual opinions and sometimes getting themselves all pissed off all day long and achieving nothing at all lol. Therefore a complete waste of time that I have no interest in getting into. :)

Though sometimes it can be entertaining to read. Like a political show where these guys all simultaneously all shouting their opinions at each other not wanting to listen to anything the other people have to say or even let the other people talk without interrupting. With horseshit rude manners lol. And in the end achieving nothing at all since they have no position in the political world and their personal opinions on the subject doesn't even matter really except for they have the chance to vote... :)



It can be hard enough just to make time to make a few posts or try to record dreams.
Previously known in other dreaming communities as Caradon.

lucidé
Posts: 584
Joined: 04 Feb 2017 03:10

Re: Lucid dream vs Astral projection

Postby lucidé » 09 Aug 2018 05:45

One is a lucid dream, one is not. You can have a lucid dream about turning into a ghost, but still be aware it isn’t real.
For example, You could even be aware of your dream when a couple of your organs are shutting down. You are about to die and it hits you. That beautiful utopia you see those overfriendly characters are showing you, it cannot be real. It’s just not how real life works, as only dreams or stories in multimedia ever produce happy endings like that.

I am just skeptical of the existence of ghosts, and while I don’t throw out the idea of supernatural powers in real life, I don’t think you really want any form of super ability to exist in real life. Unlike a lucid dream or in multimedia where the consequences of the laws of physics are never really seen, if such abilities existed in real life, they could cause some horrifying consequences.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

User avatar
Summerlander
Posts: 4210
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Lucid dream vs Astral projection

Postby Summerlander » 16 Aug 2018 08:08

The old debate again ... :roll:

If you know you're dreaming, you are having a lucid dream. The most important step a practitioner can take is the realisation that such experiences are nothing but dreams. Once you have them, the realisation that it's all a mental illusion will give you more scope for control.

Lucid dreaming really is the most advanced stage. Any sleeper who believes mental contents must have some sort of objective reality---like the dream replica of one's abode---is mistaken and very likely to be limited by such belief.

There is no reason to believe we visit different spiritual planes of existence at night when we know dreams can take any form---including one's idea of what an astral realm should look like.

As I said before, the onus is on believers to prove that astral projection is real. Logic dictates that one cannot disprove a negative such as, 'Black swans do not exist', when there are none to be found.

Someone could say to me that a flying pig has been spotted in the Amazon and that I can't disprove it. The only thing I'd say to that person would be, 'Well, where is this fucking pig? You made the claim without evidence and you expect me to prove you wrong with what? Should I scour the universe and beyond to make sure there are no creatures that resemble a flying pig?'

If someone accused you of murder without any evidence or witnesses, would it be fair of the plaintiff to demand a disproof from you? No. The onus is on the plaintiff to convince the judge that there should be a trial, with incriminating evidence, so that you (the defendant) can provide an alibi in return.

It's very simple. Heard of Hitchens's razor? That which can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

User avatar
RedKryptonite
Posts: 253
Joined: 13 Oct 2016 02:26

Re: Lucid dream vs Astral projection

Postby RedKryptonite » 16 Aug 2018 08:47

@SpaceTimeBadass
Hey,I had no idea you post here as well. I'm Seto from the Daniel Love forum. Nice to see you here as well. :D


Return to “For Beginners”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests