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Re: I died and crossed over in my dream

Posted: 13 May 2013 00:54
by Summerlander
Scientists are not arrogant for being certain about those things which have been established via experimentation. You have a computer in front of you because science is sure about how certain things work in nature...not because of faith.

If I count two objects and add two more tomake four, why do I still have to doubt or question the authenticity of the result?

On the 25 gram soul thing, I'm sorry to break it to you but the conclusion of what was really going on has been well established. The doctor's experiments were vetted and he was found to be biased by vitalism.

How is evaporated sweat still on the scale if it has evaporated?

The only thing that has been ascertained so far as regards the waking self is that there is no evidence of a soul in the living human body and certainly no evidence that anything departs it at death. What is evident is that the biological clockwork ceases to function.

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Re: I died and crossed over in my dream

Posted: 13 May 2013 18:09
by Heinrich
I've seen many people die. Perfuse diaphoresis is a less than common occurrence. Especially when the body is in an inert state. The body does relax it's anal and bladder sphincter but again, that's collected. 37 Grams of sweat? I've never seen it. If anything, the heart function AND thyroid function will cause diaphoresis while living. The absence of capillary pressure if anything will inhibit the release of sweat.

It's also important to note that if you read both sides of the argument, the conditions of a patient about to be unplugged are in a stable vegetative state. Unlike the nervous systems rectal/bladder control, (which btw is usually gone by then) diaphoresis usually requires thyroid/renal stimulation especially 25 grams all at once.

Again, scientists are arrogant. To assume that something does not exist, because you can't prove it only proves one's level of ignorance.

Do you care to discuss the "Zero point field" theory?

Re: I died and crossed over in my dream

Posted: 13 May 2013 19:13
by Intrepid
37 grams....1.3 ounces....hmmmm
Reports also said it was 21 grams, but, ok, I'll bite.

Spread 1.3 ounces of fluid evenly across someone's body, somehow. Convince me that amount of fluid wouldn't evaporate from a warm or even room temperature body in a matter of seconds. That's really a minuscule amount. On top of that, as Summerlander pointed out, his measurements were absolutely not precise.
And what would give the soul weight? What if he had been claiming that a 1.3oz, invisible gnome named Larry simultaneously occupies all of our bodies at the same time and then jumps ship when we kick the bucket?
Again, as I pointed out to Mia, you cannot claim arrogance when they decline to put time and effort into researching something that has no reasonably grounded merit for such an endeavor.
"They're not looking for the human soul?! What?! Those bastards!"
Lol....

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Re: I died and crossed over in my dream

Posted: 13 May 2013 23:40
by Summerlander
And what would give the soul weight? What if he had been claiming that a 1.3oz, invisible gnome named Larry simultaneously occupies all of our bodies at the same time and then jumps ship when we kick the bucket?


I like this theory! :mrgreen:

Re: I died and crossed over in my dream

Posted: 23 Oct 2013 22:37
by Heinrich
Scientific inability to prove the existence of the soul, does not dismiss the existence of the soul, it only exposes the ignorance of science. When you find a cocoon, it's bio function is completed. Just as I suggest the human body is. The Butterfly lives a short existence as a butterfly and leaves behind a shell similar to a cocoon. We do not know if the Butterfly has emotions let alone a soul. The term death means that something appears no longer to exist as we know it. (Gee I wonder how science explains hibernation)

In the Womb, the unborn is kept alive by the umbilical cord. It would seem that the severance of the umbilical cord would terminate the fetus. Yet it doesn't. To use your words: "It transforms into a another manifested being". Another "creation" if I may. And again, when we shed our cocoons or "Meat Jackets" as I like to call our bodies; What's to say that our vibrational conscious existence does not "Transform" to a different realm? Death is a paradigm we invented to deal with the absence of "Life as we know it". (That is the key phrase)"As we know it".

Keep an open mind, lest ye subject yourself to arrogant ignorance. Quote me on this: "When Science is wrong, it's usually REALLY WRONG". (GIGO) In fact, many of the greatest paradigm shifts occurred by mistake.

Re: I died and crossed over in my dream

Posted: 26 Oct 2013 18:17
by lucidinthe sky
mia wrote: I have been a scientist for more than 40 years, having studied at Cambridge and Harvard. I researched and taught at Cambridge University, was a research fellow of the Royal Society, and have more than 80 publications in peer-reviewed journals. I am strongly pro-science. But I am more and more convinced that that the spirit of free inquiry is being repressed within the scientific community by fear-based conformity. Institutional science is being crippled by dogmas and taboos. Increasingly expensive research is yielding diminishing returns.


It's great to have a very experienced and well educated scientist among us. And I like your viewpoint.

mia wrote: Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system. But the "scientific worldview," based on the materialist philosophy, is enormously prestigious because science has been so successful. Its achievements touch all our lives through technologies like computers, jet planes, cell phones, the Internet and modern medicine. Our intellectual world has been transformed through an immense expansion of scientific knowledge, down into the most microscopic particles of matter and out into the vastness of space, with hundreds of billions of galaxies in an ever-expanding universe.

Science has been successful because it has been open to new discoveries. By contrast, committed materialists have made science into a kind of religion. They believe that there is no reality but material or physical reality. Consciousness is a by-product of the physical activity of the brain. Matter is unconscious. Nature is mechanical. Evolution is purposeless. God exists only as an idea in human minds, and hence in human heads.

These materialist beliefs are often taken for granted by scientists, not because they have thought about them critically, but because they haven't. To deviate from them is heresy, and heresy harms careers.


This is so right on and well articulated. Thanks.

As a scientist yourself, I was wondering if you have read anything about what another scientist, Stephen Hawking calls "model dependent realism". The idea is that science creates a model for how our reality functions, but the model is not the reality itself but has become so by default. It's a very interesting concept.

Here are quotes about the concept from Hawking: "According to the idea of model-dependent realism ..., our brains interpret the input from our sensory organs by making a model of the outside world. We form mental concepts of our home, trees, other people, the electricity that flows from wall sockets, atoms, molecules, and other universes. These mental concepts are the only reality we can know. There is no model-independent test of reality. It follows that a well-constructed model creates a reality of its own."

"[Model-dependent realism] is based on the idea that our brains interpret the input from our sensory organs by making a model of the world. When such a model is successful at explaining events, we tend to attribute to it, and to the elements and concepts that constitute it, the quality of reality or absolute truth."

Re: I died and crossed over in my dream

Posted: 26 Oct 2013 18:51
by LucidLink
lucidinthe sky wrote:
mia wrote: I have been a scientist for more than 40 years, having studied at Cambridge and Harvard. I researched and taught at Cambridge University, was a research fellow of the Royal Society, and have more than 80 publications in peer-reviewed journals. I am strongly pro-science. But I am more and more convinced that that the spirit of free inquiry is being repressed within the scientific community by fear-based conformity. Institutional science is being crippled by dogmas and taboos. Increasingly expensive research is yielding diminishing returns.


It's great to have a very experienced and well educated scientist among us. And I like your viewpoint.

mia wrote: Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system. But the "scientific worldview," based on the materialist philosophy, is enormously prestigious because science has been so successful. Its achievements touch all our lives through technologies like computers, jet planes, cell phones, the Internet and modern medicine. Our intellectual world has been transformed through an immense expansion of scientific knowledge, down into the most microscopic particles of matter and out into the vastness of space, with hundreds of billions of galaxies in an ever-expanding universe.

Science has been successful because it has been open to new discoveries. By contrast, committed materialists have made science into a kind of religion. They believe that there is no reality but material or physical reality. Consciousness is a by-product of the physical activity of the brain. Matter is unconscious. Nature is mechanical. Evolution is purposeless. God exists only as an idea in human minds, and hence in human heads.

These materialist beliefs are often taken for granted by scientists, not because they have thought about them critically, but because they haven't. To deviate from them is heresy, and heresy harms careers.


This is so right on and well articulated. Thanks.

As a scientist yourself, I was wondering if you have read anything about what another scientist, Stephen Hawking calls "model dependent realism". The idea is that science creates a model for how our reality functions, but the model is not the reality itself but has become so by default. It's a very interesting concept.

Here are quotes about the concept from Hawking: "According to the idea of model-dependent realism ..., our brains interpret the input from our sensory organs by making a model of the outside world. We form mental concepts of our home, trees, other people, the electricity that flows from wall sockets, atoms, molecules, and other universes. These mental concepts are the only reality we can know. There is no model-independent test of reality. It follows that a well-constructed model creates a reality of its own."

"[Model-dependent realism] is based on the idea that our brains interpret the input from our sensory organs by making a model of the world. When such a model is successful at explaining events, we tend to attribute to it, and to the elements and concepts that constitute it, the quality of reality or absolute truth."


Mia has been gone for a while:/

It's unfortuneate, she had some great veiwpoints. I'm pretty sure summerlander scared her away though haha or she just got too busy for the forums/

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Re: I died and crossed over in my dream

Posted: 26 Oct 2013 20:59
by lucidinthe sky
LucidLink wrote:Mia has been gone for a while:/

It's unfortuneate, she had some great veiwpoints. I'm pretty sure summerlander scared her away though haha or she just got too busy for the forums/


I inquired, turns out you are right. That's a big loss. But I understand. What intelligent, well educated person wants to participate in a debate with someone much less informed? I just wonder how many others there are who have left or are silent.