Lucid dreaming convert to astral projection???

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
Enra Traz
Posts: 314
Joined: 28 Nov 2014 10:55

Re: Lucid dreaming convert to astral projection???

Postby Enra Traz » 23 Feb 2016 20:01

LMAO! :lol:

It's comical to see you cling to your ignorance and fallacious analogies PLUS unimaginatively hurl 'irrelevant' and 'dishonest' my way after I exposed you of being exactly that. Furthermore, obfuscation is certainly your area of expertise as you've just demonstrated with your post. As for fishing ... :mrgreen: I happen to go once in a while as my old Skype picture once showed and Hagart can confirm it. :-D

Your post is also somewhat oxymoronic when you say that I revealed being Enra and Summer and then claim I'm deeply dishonest. I've actually revealed it a few times before I confirmed it for you in said Introduction thread. (Quite recently I revealed it to Prince Dimitri as the history of my posts will show--not just in the time-traveller prank.)

Only a narcissistic individual who will do his best to give others an intellectual impression by employing latin terms galore will lack the sense of humour to grasp the brilliance of the Enra Traz prank and the Cluedo-like game a few brilliant WOLD members played because of it. ;-)

Oh, before I forget ... you can take a fish to a desert inside a bag of water or tank. But that's beside the point. Fish don't have the capacity to grasp anthropic concepts--hence the illogical nature of the analogy.

Also, a desert is a real place. The astral isn't. (According to Robert, if any of us doubting thomases venture into the astral plane, we will suffocate or fall into a coma.) Nuff said. :mrgreen:

RobertForsythe
Posts: 89
Joined: 17 Feb 2016 20:02

Re: Lucid dreaming convert to astral projection???

Postby RobertForsythe » 29 Feb 2016 04:44

Summer, sorry for the delay but I was on the road for a while.

Your energetic refutation of something unprovable makes me wonder a bit...
("Methinks thou dost protest too much" - A Famous Quote by William Shakespeare)

I suspect you have had a "road to the pseudo-scientific Damascus moment".
I suspect that in your early days as a projector of consciousness you had a whopper of an experience the likes of which you have never been able to repeat....
(you might be surprised how common this is)
Thus, you are now hell bent on poo-poohing the rest of the world whenever they touch on the edges of your enigmatic experience.

Tell me, if you will...
Did you have an early projection experience that made you "believe" in other worlds?
(at least for a little while?)
How I Project Consciousness In 15 Minutes Or Less & How You Can Too
by Robert Forsythe

Enra Traz
Posts: 314
Joined: 28 Nov 2014 10:55

Re: Lucid dreaming convert to astral projection???

Postby Enra Traz » 29 Feb 2016 15:12

Along the lines of coincidence? Yes. But that was a long time ago when I was young and stupid. All such experiences are still only subjective. The mind can emulate anything. Also, if such numinous mental experiences never occurred, then it would be really weird. Think about the enormity of the number of insignificant dreams against the 'jackpot' ones.

This is why I maintain that there is nothing out of the ordinary going on. How many dreams take place every night and day and only a few nab our attention because we deem them to be significant?

You can discuss this with me like a rational and civilised individual or you can continue to pretend that there is real evidence for the paranormal and churn out ad hominems in this discourse ... 8-)

I could say to you that there is a gnome living in my garden and accuse you of not believing enough as the reason why you don't see it. I could also say that despite the Higgs boson having been discovered at CERN, science can never detect and measure the gnome because it is non-physical. I would be saying that the gnome proposition is unfalsifiable. But Hitchens razor (hope you heard of it) cuts right through this nonsense:

'That which can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.'--Christopher Hitchens

Imagine in a court of law someone claiming to have seen President LBJ shooting JFK without no evidence whatsoever and subsequently saying to the judge: 'Can you prove right now that such wasn't the case?'

Ant joe can claim flying pigs and black swans exist but it takes a real scientist to build a theory and deliberately attempt to falsify it to see if it stands the test of time. 8-)

RobertForsythe
Posts: 89
Joined: 17 Feb 2016 20:02

Re: Lucid dreaming convert to astral projection???

Postby RobertForsythe » 02 Mar 2016 22:56

Enra Traz wrote:Along the lines of coincidence? Yes. But that was a long time ago when I was young and stupid. All such experiences are still only subjective. The mind can emulate anything.
[...]
You can discuss this with me like a rational and civilised individual or you can continue to pretend that there is real evidence for the paranormal and churn out ad hominems in this discourse ... 8-)
[...]

Ant joe can claim flying pigs and black swans exist but it takes a real scientist to build a theory and deliberately attempt to falsify it to see if it stands the test of time. 8-)


Enra, you say, "The mind can emulate anything" but I submit that this is not really true, imho. The Ancients teach that there are realms of consciousness beyond duality where mentation is about as likely to occur as a human is able to take a full breath in deep space/pure vacuum. Also, are you suggesting that because you can emulate something it indicates that it does not exist or is not real? (If so, I'll just say it does not suggest any such thing -- not even a little bit!) What an absurd claim to make!...?....

Also, I say again that I am pretty sure that you do not understand the difference between evidence, proof and opinion so there is really no point in pretending that it is possible to engage you in rational discussion or debate. (The last one we tried to have you LOST by virtue of Cohen's rule which was pointed out by a third party here.

Finally it is such hypocrisy that you keep making reference to "ad hominems" when you are one of the worst offenders in this regard.

Just from a single thread you recently unleashed a steady stream of them (Flying Jesus)

Enra/Summer, you have complained multiple times about ad hominems and you intimate that it indicates lack of intelligence or proves the labeler is wrong, loses the debate, etc. But then you proceed to spew ad hominems willy nilly whenever it suits you. What hypocrisy.

Note; when someone engages in hypocrisy it is NOT an ad hominem to point out that it is hypocrisy.

When someone gets bossy and tyrannical it is not an ad hominem to point out that such behavior is that of a petty tyrant.

If someone is duplicitous and speaks out of both sides of his mouth it is not an ad hominem to point out that they are duplicitous or deceptive remarks.

You recently said'

"I can be good, happy, and have my moments of both egoism and altruism without a belief in God. "


But "in "The Shocking Truth" thread you said;

Summer says;
And you are absolutely correct. Altruism is an illusion as ultimately so-called selfless acts are about self-gratification


So which do you really believe?... or do you just blow whichever color smoke suits you in the moment?

Here is a list of hypocritical comments and ad hominems and gratuitous put downs that you spewed willy nilly in the flyingjesus thread (who are you trying to kid?);

It's also funny how the pious all sound the same when their pseudo-prophets are attacked. They've got nothing intelligent to say as a counterattack so they resort to ad hominems and name-calling. Soooo benign and divine
[....]
And the sad thing is that you probably have it read to you so no wonder you are lazy reading in general
[....]
You are still religious. Probably not as bad as ISIS but enough to warrant ridicule and derision
[....]
What a pathetic loser!
[....]
You really think I care about the number of people who check your silly dream?
[....]
By your standards, in Nazi Europe you would have given up like a coward and would have followed the Hitler-adulating crowd like a sheep. Quite sad ...
[....]
Anyway, I suspect the majority who checked your thread were more interested to see me intellectually caning you and your buddy there who is away with the fairies
{hahah... don't kid yourself, Summer}(italics mine)
[....]
Anyone who says books don't help is the biggest doofus ever. You are the best example I've encountered so far of the definition of ignoramus


Summer/Enya, I seriously doubt that anyone here is buying your pretend persona of being a highly edumacated science-type... nope... I know I ain't buying it.
How I Project Consciousness In 15 Minutes Or Less & How You Can Too
by Robert Forsythe

Enra Traz
Posts: 314
Joined: 28 Nov 2014 10:55

Re: Lucid dreaming convert to astral projection???

Postby Enra Traz » 03 Mar 2016 01:13

Is that the best you can do? A non-argument and a non-sequitur about what arises in consciousness? Do you believe dreams happen in some other dimension, too? Because if you do I rest my case. My message is clear: the mind can emulate things real and imagined, meaning you can dream about your house, your deceased pet, and a winged dragon, too; this doesn't make the latter objectively real. My six-year-old son can understand this and I'm surprised you need clarification. :-)

And why do you speak of the ancients like they knew it all? Hello?! They thought the world was flat and the sun a deity. 'In your opinion' doesn't cut it as a legitimate argument and you still sound like a schizo claiming his hallucinations are real. A feeble non-argument or speciousness is what it is ... Also, show me again where Cohen's law applies to me more than you ... :mrgreen:

Secondly, my statements about altruism and the contexts in which they were said don't contradict each other at all and you know it. If you don't know it, let me help you out: an illusion is not something that doesn't exist, it is something which isn't what it seems. So maybe go away and do your homework again ... (I can't believe I mean that much to you for you to suddenly study my posts--I must've really made an impact!) :-D

Finally, regarding the fatuous Flying character... when someone is being unreasonable and misologistic, or just downright dense, it is the intellectual's duty to point this out and let them know why the discussion cannot continue. And you seem to be cut from the same cloth as you're unable to compute with your misunderstanding of terms like 'illusion', 'evidence', 'proof' and the scientific method itself. Keep your circular logic about your amorous astral projection affair and continue spouting nonsense with your New Age buddies in this little thread of yours while I discuss real matters of the mind in mine. 8-)

Thanks for checking out my Shocking Truth thread, btw. I only wish you'd learnt something ... :mrgreen:

RobertForsythe
Posts: 89
Joined: 17 Feb 2016 20:02

Re: Lucid dreaming convert to astral projection???

Postby RobertForsythe » 03 Mar 2016 03:22

It is not even close to the best I can do, Enra... it is merely all that is necessary to make my point. I prefer to be frugal in this sense.

I have shown clearly that;
You are a hypocrite
your posts are deceptive/deceitful
you do not understand basic rules of logic
you do not adhere to rules of disciplined debate

Note that I just made a reply to you and I am pretty sure that I backed up every point I made with exact quotes from your posts.

In reply you just made a completely worthless response to me that amounted to nothing more than a smiley rich tantrum and senseless rant that you backed up with nothing. I made no non-arguments and nothing I said was a non sequitur. You have a bad habit of making false evaluations of other people's posts which you back up with nothing. You remind me of that phrase, "a legend in his own mind".

My message is clear: the mind can emulate things real and imagined, meaning you can dream about your house, your deceased pet, and a winged dragon, too; this doesn't make the latter objectively real


Not only is your message ridiculously muddled and unclear, it borders on incomprehensible. You are so busy with your put-downs and insults you forget to actually make a meaningful point. You also spend an inordinate amount of time refuting points that no one has made.

You have no idea what my cosmology is or whether I believe dreams are another dimension. You have never attempted sincere and genuine communication on this subject. You have this chip on your shoulder and respond instantly with some irrelevant knee jerk reaction to something that is only happening in the space between your ears.

Then you ask.
And why do you speak of the ancients like they knew it all?


I don't speak of them that way. I speak of them with due respect. (Respect, Enra, perhaps you could give it a try now and then?)
Oh, & guess what?... The Ancient sages were well aware that the earth was not flat. I find that a lot of pseudo-educated pretenders do not know this. The burden of pseudo knowledge that so many brainwashed plebian serfs carry must be torture....

"

~8-9th Century BC The idea that the Earth is in motion around the Sun is proposed in Sanskrit texts in ancient India. It is the first recorded evidence of heliocentrism.

4th Century BC Greek philosopher Heraclides Ponticus proposes that the apparent daily motion of stars is created by the rotation of the Earth.

3rd Century BC Greek astronomer Aristarchus of Samos advances heliocentrism in a now lost book. The ideas of Aristarchus, however, were
described in a book by the great philosopher and scientist Archimedes called The Sand Reckoner.
"


Then you say, "when someone is being unreasonable and misologistic, or just downright dense, it is the intellectual's duty to point this out and let them know why the discussion cannot continue."

No Enra, its not. You are wrong... again.
How I Project Consciousness In 15 Minutes Or Less & How You Can Too
by Robert Forsythe

Enra Traz
Posts: 314
Joined: 28 Nov 2014 10:55

Re: Lucid dreaming convert to astral projection???

Postby Enra Traz » 03 Mar 2016 11:05

Circular non-logic, no reason, and no evidence. ^^ :lol:

And my quotes which you posted above only served to expose you as someone in need of learning the meaning of certain words like ... 'illusion'. Funny how you conveniently ignored that part which backfired on you.

Another fallacy in your argument: the most tenuous indications that a minute minority suspected heliocentrism in the distant past must mean that they have the answers to everything as a whole. You bury your head further in the sand, Robert. :mrgreen:

Oh, before I forget ... you say my message about mental emulation is muddled and unclear but you fail to point out in what sense. If you really don't know what I'm saying there then I feel sorry for you! My kids would embarass you and I can get a better and more intelligent conversation out of my youngest.

Robert, how old are you? Either you're a teenage delinquent or a senile, cantankerous individual with serious raciocination issues. :-)

RobertForsythe
Posts: 89
Joined: 17 Feb 2016 20:02

Re: Lucid dreaming convert to astral projection???

Postby RobertForsythe » 03 Mar 2016 18:39

Enra, just more false accusations that you back up with nothing. There is no circular reasoning in any of my posts. Your replies are meaningless. You make the accusation but never explain how it is so -- because it is a false accusation. Repeating yourself does not make your lame point any stronger.

I back up what I said by simply pointing out that you made accusations without stating how anything was circular. When I point out that your posts lack anything substantive, *that* is in and of itself a form of evidence! (res ipsa loquitur) which I have repeatedly noted that you do not understand. If I say that your car has no wheels and your false reply is "circular logic... my kid is smarter than you" you not only fail to make a rational argument but you come across as totally clueless.

Your meaningless replies are merely a string of insults and put downs. You are full of stuff and nonsense. To repeatedly state how your child is smarter than someone that you are only trying to insult is basically an admission that you can't make a valid point to support your thesis. That is not a rational argument.

Since I got here it seems your entire argument is merely, "You believe in other dimensions, ipso facto, you are an idiot". This is False Logic (just plain wrong). Many extremely intelligent, knowledgeable, rational people believe in a Creator and dimensions beyond the 5 senses. They also recognize that it is a matter of faith.

If someone says, "I believe in X" and some arrogant, egotistical, irrational petty little tyrant continually insists that "you must prove it" is merely being obstinate (and wrong).

The problem with atheists is that most are not aware that they are adhering to their "Belief" as matter of faith in the same fashion;

Atheist certainty and religious certainty are both faith claims that transcend reason and common sense. But at least religious believers have the intellectual honesty to admit theirs is a faith claim.

So, enough of the college dorm clichés about “no evidence” for God. You have not decided to be an atheist because of “no evidence.” As a non-scientist, you are unlikely to even know the evidence that believing scientists offer. The Times piece quoted Collins: “When you have for the first time in front of you this 3.1 billion–letter instruction book that conveys all kinds of information and all kinds of mystery about humankind, you can’t survey that going through page after page without a sense of awe. I can’t help but look at those pages and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God’s mind.” Have you checked those 3.1 billion–letter instructions? I suspect you would understand them as poorly as I would. In a future response I will address the other points in your opening statement. But I will respond to one now—your argument that Prager’s or Collins’s God is in the same intellectual league as belief in Zeus. Did anyone studying the human genome ever argue for Zeus? What are you talking about? I’ll answer that question. You are talking as if you are addressing fellow atheists who cheer all these lines that belittle faith in God. They think ridicule compensates for their ignorance of intellectually sophisticated God-belief. But unfortunately for you, in this dialogue you are not addressing fellow believers in atheism or people who mock religion. You are addressing a mixed audience and debating a man who knows his arguments. I heard them in high school.


P.S. I am twice your age and on my third career. I am a degreed physicist and worked a couple decades in the sciences. I have forgotten more about science than you will likely ever know. What do you do?
How I Project Consciousness In 15 Minutes Or Less & How You Can Too
by Robert Forsythe

Enra Traz
Posts: 314
Joined: 28 Nov 2014 10:55

Re: Lucid dreaming convert to astral projection???

Postby Enra Traz » 03 Mar 2016 19:55

First of all, atheism is not a belief, it is a disbelief. I am either educating you repeatedly or your senility is affecting your neurons. :mrgreen:

Secondly, anyone who thinks faith is a virtue is a fool and very anti-scientific. Science doesn't care about what you believe. If you believe in other dimensions without any evidence or even a coherent scientific theory about it, you're just a pillock. :-D


Thirdly, one look at your posts is enough to see that you believe in New Age poo. You're an old codger afraid of death and desperately wishing for fairytales to be true. What you need to do is invest in a new pair of glasses so that you can read the dictionary before you attempt to understand my statements.

Finally, I've already refuted the statements of dishonest scientists like Collins who make exaggerations and have political agendas. (The kind of person who claims a waterfall is a sign from God.) :lol:

I suggest you get yourself a few books on the human genome and evolutionary biology and then you will understand why DNA complexity is not evidence for God. You have just displayed an ignorance of biology and a lack of imagination for genetic propagation. If you had an iota of a clue, you'd be familiar with the countless ways in which our bodies could be better ... indeed intelligently designed. Instead, we wear glasses, have cancers, and you're probably wondering why you're greyer than ever before. Go ahead, continue to prostrate before an imaginary father while I laugh my head off. :mrgreen:

You bring nothing new to the table, just the same old weak points that have been refuted a thousand times by proper scientists like Dawkins. But I won't even recommend The God Delusion where Collins is thoroughly destroyed. Just read my entire thread 'Lucid Dreamers and God'. You might learn something before you cash your chips. 8-)

A degree in physics he says ... yeah, right! Theology and mythology more like! :-D

PS. This is probably going to receive another feeble and truly meaningless reply from Robert, our expert in specious argumentation! I am 33 years of age and I am pretty sure I've done a lot more than Robert in my first five years than he has in a lifetime. 8-)

Hmmm ... another someone I've debated with claimed to be an accomplished author but then failed to mention one single book! Dimitri, is that you? :mrgreen:

As one of Michael Raduga's researchers and the head of the Phase Managing Department at the Phase Research Centre, I have probably done more science than you have ever even read about. Plus I am also an illustrator, bookmaker, and a writer yet to publish his first book. (But I've already got an illustration publish in Euromoney Institutional Investor PLC's magazine when I used to work for them as a bilingual researcher and I also have a conclusion to a study I conducted published on OBE4u plus an account of an out-of-body experience I had in Raduga's The Phase--A Practical Guidebook. :-)

RobertForsythe
Posts: 89
Joined: 17 Feb 2016 20:02

Re: Lucid dreaming convert to astral projection???

Postby RobertForsythe » 03 Mar 2016 21:20

More insults and put downs from Enra/Summer that do nothing to advance his argument.

First of all, atheism is not a belief, it is a disbelief

This is a meaningless nit-pick.

Secondly, anyone who thinks faith is a virtue is a fool and very anti-scientific

I say this is False and false. Prove it, Enra.

Science doesn't care about what you believe.

This is a straw man argument. Again you are refuting things no one has said. In the debate realm of logical discourse you are failing miserably.

If you believe in other dimensions without any evidence or even a coherent scientific theory about it, you're just a pillock

Again, you demonstrate that you do not understand the difference between proof and evidence.

If I see creation and I hypothesize a Creator I am being more rational than the atheist who insists that something comes from nothing.

Finally, I've already refuted the statements of dishonest scientists like Collins who make exaggerations and have political agendas. (The kind of person who claims a waterfall is a sign from God.)


Atheistist scoundrels often default to The Big Lie when they are stymied. Collins did not say that (a waterfall is a sign from God.).

Dr. Collins did not offer three waterfalls as an argument for belief in the Trinity, not even in your isolated citation from his book or in the single sentence in Time. All he said was that three waterfalls reminded of him of the Christian Trinity and that after observing such awesome beauty he became a believing Christian. If a man says that a beautiful flower reminds him of his beautiful wife, he is not saying that the beauty of the flower proves his wife is also beautiful. Natural wonders often inspire a person to reflect on the divine. You see natural beauty and, for that matter, everything else in the universe, and see no Creator, just coincidence. I find that reaction at least as odd as you find seeing in nature evidence for a Creator. The Collins comments simply indicate that he and other eminent scientists see science as arguing for a Creator God. If Collins had said that the existence of three waterfalls proves that there is a Trinity, I would then share your dismissive attitude. But these comments didn’t even imply something so preposterous. - See more at: http://jewcy.com/post/day_3_prager_why_are_atheists_so_angry#sthash.lO5hgNBd.dpuf


new age poo?
You have no idea what I believe Enra, because you have never attempted to find out. You read one or two sentences and leapt to conclusions in typical knee jerk fashion.

When I go to Mexico I speak Spanish. Your comment is like saying, "Oh, listen to that language -- you believe in Spanish..." No, I use the language people are comfortable with in a given locale. It facilitates communication... something you appear to know little about but perhaps you could learn.

I have found that certain metaphysical terms facilitate communication of certain ideas better than other terminology. I also have found that atheism is generally embraced by obstinate, myopic types who are so irrational and narrow minded that certain valid concepts and ideas cannot even be discussed. Most atheists that I have met are egotistical and hugely arrogant -- not all, but most.

You did not answer the question, again... what do you do?
How I Project Consciousness In 15 Minutes Or Less & How You Can Too
by Robert Forsythe


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