OBE's vs lucid dreams

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
RobertForsythe
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby RobertForsythe » 02 Apr 2016 00:34

It was either a non sequitur or a giant red herring.

I said nothing about "belief". You inserted completely irrelevant nonsense.
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Enra Traz
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby Enra Traz » 02 Apr 2016 00:38

I didn't say you said something about belief, doofus! Are you slow or are you just pretending you didn't read my reply properly? Go back and read it again. I've edited it in the hope that you might understand. :-D

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Enra Traz
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby Enra Traz » 02 Apr 2016 00:41

:lol:

Look who has also edited the previous post ...

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RobertForsythe
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby RobertForsythe » 02 Apr 2016 00:42

You did! I quoted you exactly in my reply! (this is hopeless)

By the way, judging from your posts, you would call a pair of little girs claiming to have seen fairies and providing photographs as strong evidence that such beings exist and more readily dismiss the most probable explanation: children with a vivid imagination who decided to get creative by drawing fairies and making photographic montages


You must have very poor "judgment".
Nothing I said merited such a completely irrelevant reply.
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RobertForsythe
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby RobertForsythe » 02 Apr 2016 00:44

Enra Traz wrote::lol:

Look who has also edited the previous post ...

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C'mon Enra... stop being ridiculous... my "edit" was only to add to my reply in order to answer another point you had made -- I edited none of the prior content. (Of course, this goes back to my prior evaluation of your modus operandi as "very dishonest" overall).
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Enra Traz
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby Enra Traz » 02 Apr 2016 00:47

Erm ... I beg to differ, Mr scientist who retracts his words. Think about what you've said before. Revise your posts and the context. And then sleep on it. Good night! 8-)

Very dishonest? Look in the mirror and try to be more original instead of accusing me of the very thing I accused you of first. Like I said. Revise our discussions and jog your memory. ;-)

RobertForsythe
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby RobertForsythe » 02 Apr 2016 01:04

Enra Traz wrote:Erm ... I beg to differ, Mr scientist who retracts his words. Think about what you've said before. Revise your posts and the context. And then sleep on it. Good night! 8-)

Very dishonest? Look in the mirror and try to be more original instead of accusing me of the very thing I accused you of first. Like I said. Revise our discussions and jog your memory. ;-)


What are you talking about?! What are you smoking?

What did I retract? (nothing, that's what -- but just fyi, a scientist is allowed to retract words if and or when he so desires... that has nothing to do with "science"... the more I talk to you the more I get the sense that you have no idea what you are talking about)
I replied directly to your own words right there in black & white... I quoted you exactly. You denied saying something that I quoted you exactly on... in reply you denied what you just said and then tried to characterize my edit as being relevant or noteworthy in that context when it was no such thing... I merely added to my comment to reply more fully to your prior post. Again... that is dishonest.

"Revise our discussions and jog your memory" ?? ... what the heck does that mean?? It is senseless....
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Skippy23000
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby Skippy23000 » 02 Apr 2016 05:50

OBE vs Lucid dream?

Years ago I was struck by a comment made by Kenneth Ring in his book Life at Death. He commented that
perhaps the out of body experience is a "feeling" a metaphor indicating to the person having that feeling that a "change" or expansion of consciousness is occurring. Interestingly, that's the only thing in his book that stuck with me over the years but it made sense then and it does now as well. Couple that with the proposition that we all exist in a state of oneness with everything else but exist in a state of ignorance of this interconnection, any incident that brings about a sudden change in that illusion of separateness must seem strange. I am struck by the number of people, especially near death experiencers who comment "I then remembered who I was and the why of everything." That is a paraphrase, of course. When one feels they are apart of everything and everything is apart of them, does it not follow that there is no where to go, no need for an out of body experience? One just has an awareness in the same way as I might have an awareness of a pain in my little toe or an ache in my neck. There is merely a "shifting" of attention to that pain or ache as a part of my experience. If we are "apart" of everything that ever was known and will be known, if we are "forever" but live in a state of ignorance, if my consciousness is part of your consciousness and everyone else s on this forum, that is absolutely awesome! But HOW does one shift attention to that greater wholeness, of the other that is also "me." How can I be consciously aware of "that other" except in the most restricted of ways, through limited awareness while on this planet-side trip. We do live this illusion of separateness, perhaps as a survival mechanism. To know consciously all that is happening at once without any boundaries would be sheer madness, insanity.

Interestingly enough people teach classes on this: how to develop your intuition. How to be psychic. In my opinion they are teaching you how to shift consciousness or how to expand consciousness. And it appears these exercises actually work for many people. Everyone here has probably had "a knowing" that something was about to happen or that a particular person was best to be avoided. We had a "feeling."
Of course we should also remember that sometimes feeling can be mistaken for something else. Never let that slip our minds.

I don't know how many of you read Thomas Mellon-Benedicts near death experience but during his experience he stated that he did not have the experience of going anywhere, but rather his mind/consciousness was expending! His NDE is a must read for everyone here discussing the OBE and LD.

If the proposition is that there is only consciousness and that it can shift from the most constricted form, our present planetary trip, to a more cosmic inclusive form that we rarely experience, complete cosmic consciousness where there is a sense of complete oneness. There IS no where to go. There is only consciousness and our willingness to expend it whether through dreams, lucid dream states, exercises in intuition, or even remote viewing techniques.

If there is nowhere to go, the out of body is non existent. There is as Ring suggested the "feeling" that one is leaving as opposed to "expanding". All of the discussion of trying to determine if OBE is real because it "has a different feel" becomes a mere mental exercise, not a bad thing in itself. We all need mental stimulation.

Of course it could be pointed out that maybe everything I just said can be seen as one of those mental exercises :lol: But it is the one that makes the most sense to me. I do not at this time believe OBE exist as anything other that a feeling of consciousness expanding, whether in the LD state or NDE state.

Enra Traz
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby Enra Traz » 02 Apr 2016 11:19

And Robert there might believe you are being honest about the 'consciousness expansion' making sense to you--

--and he might deem the anecdotal paraphrashing as strong evidence for it. :-D

But in all seriousness, let's take into account that just because something makes sense to you doesn't necessarily make it true. Some discovered truths can be counterintuitive. Like quantum entanglement, the fact that we're only a chromosome away from the chimp, or that out 185-million-greats-grandfather was a fish! Scientists can sometimes expect a particular result a priori and proven wrong a posteriori.

Some philosophers even posit that our intuitions about consciousness are wrong--that it's not what it seems--and that the mind is just the brain's software. And some cognitive scientists would go as far as saying that we only seem like we're conscious or that the brain creates a user illusion. What is your take on all of this, skippy23000? You seem like you can engage in a proper intelligent discussion. :-)

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Skippy23000
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby Skippy23000 » 02 Apr 2016 13:38

"...a proper intelligent discussion." ?
And the criteria for that is?
I am a long way from being a philosopher, thank god for that.
They strike me as very unhappy people, unsettled, and prone to arrogance.
I already have enough of that in my own life to deal with, thank you very much :).
We just don't know the answers to any of these questions. I have never experienced
the expanded conscious state people describe as 'Being one with everything." Please no
"Hot Dog vendor joke. I've already heard it. :) But if that state actually exists and can be
experienced (It appears people in lucid dreams have experienced it as well as some mediators)
then I make the leap of judgement that it does then exist. If indeed the proposition is true that we are one with everything (even the hot dog) then I assert that the OBE is as Ken Ring suggest just a metaphor.

Your quite right, just because something makes sense does not necessarily make it true. I've
stopped beating my brains out trying to figure out TRUTH along time ago. While it's a great mental exercise it leads nowhere, at least to no conclusion everyone can accept. (Hummm. Now THAT'S an interesting remark right there. Does the definition of truth rely on a consensus? If so no one is ever going to get to the bottom of it because with almost 9 billion people in the world it's unlikely they will all agree.)
So we can discard that as a criteria right now. What ever truth is, it seems far to fluid to be embodied
by any one definition. I guess that brings us back to the expression "truth is relative." Whatever APPEARS true depends on the information on hand at the time. We certainly have heaps more verifiable information than DaVinci and we STILL don't have the answers. But maybe truth doesn't deal with everything as a whole. Perhaps it deals only with individual things as they arise. Perhaps that's by physicists have never found a TOE a theory of everything. I apologize for the vagueness of my thinking.

A "user illusion?" That's funny. As long as it "user friendly" I don't much care. Regardless of all the nays and yeas, it seems it boils down to this: we either remain tangled in a morass of what if's and do nothing, or we put together some basic rules and assumptions on what our life is and get on with it, always trying to keep an open mind regardless of where it leads us.

"Some philosophers even posit that our intuitions about consciousness are wrong" I would only change that statement to sometimes wrong. That's a fact. OOPS! Did I just say that's truth? I better watch my mouth. :lol:

I can appreciate science because without it humanity would not have gotten as far as it has. Once we get rid of these stupid rockets spewing out crapola into the atmosphere and come up with some NEW technology, we will so be heading out of our solar system, perhaps out of the galaxy. People love puzzles.
What is consciousness, is a puzzle. I don't know that all puzzles have an end, only meaningful tentative conclusions that will change as new information comes to light. I also like puzzles. I prefer word puzzles like cryptograms over cross-word or jig saw. But at least with these there is an end with one answer :)

Whatever consciousness is will probably be discovered in a physics laboratory but I don't think it will happen in my lifetime. And if it does happen will I be able to accept it? What cherished ideas will I have to give up? That's something we all have to deal with, maintaining an open mind.
/ metaphor, shapes how we view the world. When talking about what is real, especially
spirituality and consciousness I think we all might benefit by looking at it. There are some interesting remarks on the subjects on Google. AH yes, Google. The new Bible of the 21st century. Whenever you have a perplexing problem go to Google. :lol:


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