OBE's vs lucid dreams

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
Samwise
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby Samwise » 14 May 2016 13:38

I used to quote 'Pam Reynolds' and 'Miss Zs'.


I never said I was quoting the “Miss Z” case as evidence, I was just asking if you were aware of it. I will give that thread a read, I’m just limited with my internet connectivity here. Reading about consciousness is all well and good, as is being up to date with the current research on consciousness, but the direct experience of consciousness in all its different forms is important to, and this direct experience may transcend all the words there are attempting to explain consciousness, especially as science has yet to produce anything close to a water tight explanation of consciousness. Sure, one day it may well do, but we’re not there yet.

…insisting that there is more to OBEs and NDEs than meets the eye…


I don’t need to insist there is more to NDE’s than “meets the eye”…the research conducted on NDE’s and their effects on people by many independent researchers paints a very clear picture of this. You stated before this is wish fulfillment on the experiencers part, but why then are the personality changes so particular, and why do they transcend one’s age, gender, race, culture, religion etc?

If you really take into account all that parapsychological information in a perspicacious manner, you will realised that everything those slyboots have done is suspect---from their evaluation of probabilities and conclusive corollaries to their questionable methods and subjects.


This may apply in some cases but to say be default it occurs in ALL cases without question seems more than a trifle opinionated and biased to me. Of course we should also be aware of the some of the sceptical crowd, as if this applies one way then it is bound to go both ways, all scientists being human and havning their own subjective biases and agendas which can certainly come into play.

http://www.skepticalaboutskeptics.org/

I recommend this very interesting Scientific American blog post article on the research of psychiatrist Dr Ian Stevenson.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/ian-stevensone28099s-case-for-the-afterlife-are-we-e28098skepticse28099-really-just-cynics/

Quoting from the article:

“Some cases were much stronger than others, but I must say, when you actually read them first hand, many are exceedingly difficult to explain away by rational, non-paranormal means. Much of this is due to Stevenson’s own exhaustive efforts to disconfirm the paranormal account. “We can strive toward objectivity by exposing as fully as possible all observations that tend to weaken our preferred interpretation of the data,” he wrote. “If adversaries fire at us, let them use ammunition that we have given them.” And if truth be told, he excelled at debunking the debunkers.”

Does this sound like the approach adopted by a charlatan?

This article from The Atlantic may be of interest on the consciousness side of things.

Most Popular Theories of Consciousness Are Worse Than Wrong

http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/03/phlegm-theories-of-consciousness/472812/

Like I said before, NDErs taking their experiences to be real is redolent of dreamers erroneously mistaking ordinary dream scenarios for reality.


A very key difference though you’ve overlooked is that people wake up from their dreams and know they weren’t real. This is NOT the case with the vast majority of NDE’s, and they have substantial long term effects on the people that experience them, and these effects can actually grow over time…this is well documented in the research literature and inarguable. Dreams do not have this effect. Why the difference if they are essentially the same thing? (This is not even considering all the other various effects that occur with NDE’s which are not explained by the dream/hallucination hypothesis of course).

Like I said before, NDErs taking their experiences to be real is redolent of dreamers erroneously mistaking ordinary dream scenarios for reality.


Well we seem to be running around in circles here, but the “hallucinatory delusion” hypothesis completely and utterly fails to explain the healing events associated with NDE’s (these were well documented even if you choose to ignore them), the veridical elements of the NDE, or the long term specific changes in personality that result from them.

My stance is that if you have something to prove, prove it! I am waiting for it.


Why do you think proving OBE’s as being objective occurrences is by default easy?? Take the existence of gravity waves, or the Higgs Boson. Both were hypothesised to exist many decades before they were actually discovered, and they required extremely sophisticated technology at the cutting edge of Man’s knowledge of physics and engineering to make the detection. Just because something is true and valid does not by default make it easy to prove. Again, we seem to running around in circles here, but you take the view that if physical proof of OBE’s cannot be obtained, then therefore they are not real. Is this not a limiting assumption? Many seasoned projectors with science and engineering backgrounds don’t view OBE’s as occurring in physical reality either. But they still view the experience as objective and valid, it just doesn’t occur in this physical reality. So attempting to obtain physical proof of what essentially could be a non-physical experience is doomed to fail. But as I’ve said before, with this in mind, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I do definitely agree with you though that there were limitations to the Miss Z study. But I also view there being major limitations to the current lab research on induction of distorted body awareness, which these scientists are mistaking with OBE’s. Furthermore, all the seasoned projectors I know of were highly sceptical of the validity of the OBE or of any concept of afterlife, until they experienced OBE’s. They did not go into these experiences wanting to believe, they didn’t believe such things from the outset, and yet the experiences they had changed their views on these matters.

I am also speaking from the experience of taking drugs, practising meditation and having had an NDE myself---which I never believed, even at the time, was anything other than a traumatically induced subjective experience.


I respect your own take on your own experiences of course (I'm experienced in all those things to bar the NDE). But why is an experience lesser because it is subjective? Is not ALL of one’s entire experience of life subjective? That doesn’t mean it isn’t real and valid.

Lucid dreaming was discovered, investigated and demonstrated to be real because ... guess what ... it's real. The same cannot be said for conscious perspectives existing outside bodies.


While I find some of the NDE case reports compelling, you may be surprised to hear I am sceptical of consciousness existing outside bodies, particularly when it comes to OBE’s. OBE’s are much more likely a journey into consciousness than out of body, in my view, that seems like a much more logical explanation for what is going on. It’s worth remembering though that “soul flights” or projections/OBE’s (whatever label one wishes to apply) have, like lucid dreams, been reported by pretty much all cultures and religions in different parts of the world going very far back in time. And science has spent much less time investigating them as thoroughly as it has lucid dreams.

Consider yourself annihilated.


I’m afraid not dear sir. I am as indestructible as the energy from which I borrow to sustain myself! :mrgreen: I like you Summerlander, and have enjoyed this debate, I wanted that to be clear. You might be surprised to find that if we were to have a face to face chat I think we would likely agree on a lot more matters than we would disagree on. And I don’t think there is a whole lot we do disagree on, I guess my position is that my mind isn’t made up on some issues, whereas yours seems to be. But I don’t consider myself annihilated I’m afraid. It seems to me that anybody or any scientists whose experiences or findings do not align with your model are automatically and by default labelled as deluded, or as a fraud, quack or liar. I think this smacks of a little arrogance and ignorance on your part in some respects. I think you have failed to acknowledge or deliberately ignored some evidence that I some respects goes against your model, and at the same time you acknowledge evidence from research that has obvious holes in with respect to OBE research, while failing to acknowledge said holes.

Anywho, it has been fun, I will check out that consciousness thread when I get the chance. 8-)

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Summerlander
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby Summerlander » 14 May 2016 14:32

Well, I'll let you have the last word here. It's been interesting. I'm not saying that an afterlife is out of the question, I'm just saying that so far it seems highly unlikely. You should adopt the same attitude towards the view that death really means death and OBEs/ NDEs are just illusory.

By the way, my own mother believes dreams happen in a spirit realm. Also, many lucid dreamers believe they are 'astral projecting' and some of their experiences do influence their behaviour and they also lose a fear of death. In fact, one can argue that those who think they have left their bodies and travel to mystical realms are not even lucid dreaming as they fail to recognise the totally subjective nature of their experiences. (To be even more relevant to the topic, this is the reason why I view lucid dreams as being superior in terms of mental acuity than OBEs as experiences literally interpreted as such.) So I'll leave you to ponder: What's so special about NDEs? :-)

You may say everything is subjective but I would be careful with this black and white view in its extremes lest you fall into a solipsistic trap reductio ad absurdum. Some truths are epistemologically objective and thus verifiable by a plurality of sentient beings; for example, both humans and bats perceive a mountain in their respective ways---therefore, the mountain has an objective reality. And then you get ontologically subjective truths such as the one conveyed in the statement, 'To me, Vincent Van Gogh was the greatest painter who ever lived.' Failing to make such distinctions is a gross disregard for reality.

Good luck in your search for the truth. I only have this piece of advice from experience: parapsychology is a dead end apart from not having an explanation for consciousness either. :geek:

Let me leave you with an interesting excerpt from Unweaving The Rainbow by Richard Dawkins:

'A brain that is good at simulating models in imagination is also, almost inevitably, in danger of self-delusion. How many of us as children have lain in bed, terrified because we thought we saw a ghost or a monstrous face staring in at the bedroom window, only to discover that it was a trick of the light? I've already discussed how eagerly our brain's simulation software will construct a solid face where the reality is a hollow face. It will just as eagerly make a ghostly face where the reality is a collection of moonlit folds in a white net curtain.

'Every night of our lives we dream. Our simulation software sets up worlds that do not exist; people, animals and places that never existed, perhaps never could exist. At the time, we experience these simulations as though they were reality. Why should we not, given that we habitually experience reality in the same way---as simulation models? The simulation software can delude us when we are awake, too. Illusions like the hollow face are in themselves harmless, and we understand how they work. But our simulation software can also, if we are drugged, or feverish, or fasting, produce hallucinations. Throughout history, people have seen visions of angels, saints and gods; and these have seemed very real to them. Well, of course they WOULD seem real. They are models, put together, by the normal simulation software. The simulation software is using the same modelling techniques as it uses ordinarily when it presents its continuously updated edition of reality. No wonder these visions have been so influential. No wonder they have changed people's lives. So if ever we hear a story that somebody has seen a vision, been visited by an archangel, or heard voices in the head, we should immediately be suspicious of taking it at face value.'


Me, being the hard-nosed, atheistic sceptic that I am, also possess the same kind of brain capable of producing ultra-realistic simulations. I'm not immune to brain porkies either. I can experience sleep paralysis and feel the presence of ghostly intruders. And I know what it's like to have an irrational fear even though the voice of reason reminds me that it's all a mental simulation.

Anyway, nice debating you. ;-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Pilgrim
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby Pilgrim » 22 Jun 2016 23:39

Summerlander wrote:
Consider yourself annihilated. :mrgreen:

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Pilgrim
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby Pilgrim » 22 Jun 2016 23:40

This statement got me laughing. Has Samwise had any other thread activity, or was he really annihilated?

Edited to add: I am not laughing at Samwise. I believe in the supernatural even more than he does. The sound of the quote is why I can't stop laughing.

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Summerlander
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby Summerlander » 23 Jun 2016 13:25

He's been annihilated. :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

Samwise
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby Samwise » 09 Jul 2016 21:41

If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine... :mrgreen:

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Summerlander
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby Summerlander » 09 Jul 2016 21:56

He's back! There is an afterlife after all ... :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

metalclay
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby metalclay » 22 Aug 2016 07:24

http://www.robertpeterson.org/obe-vs-lucid.html gives the detailed difference between them.

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Summerlander
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Re: OBE's vs lucid dreams

Postby Summerlander » 22 Aug 2016 16:03

Well, first of all, the tabular array of comparative information regarding lucid dreams and OBEs in the link you provide, metalclay, is incorrect ...

Lucid dreams, like OBEs, do provide the impression that one is elsewhere other than the sleeping body. The difference is in interpretation. The lucid dreamer recognises that it's only a dissociative illusion aided by the brain's power to place proprioception in elaborate three-dimensional fabrications. The OBEr---who on the other hand is convinced he or she is truly out-of-body---suffers from delusion.

So of course lucid dreamers can program and control their mental experiences with ease---or at least possess a higher degree of control---because they acknowlege the fact that they are only dreams (virtual realities created by their minds). OBErs think they experience things beyond their minds and, for that reason, miss out.

Hence why I argue that lucid dreaming is not only more advanced, it is also applying the correct logic to lucid mental experiences. As for waking consciousness during sleep, lucid dreams can possess that too. It is the hallmark of strong lucidity.

But labels and semantics aside, the brain only reflects a spectral array of the same hybrid phase state, which is characterised by Gamma waves of activity. This phase state is what compounds waking consciousness and dreaming. How you interpret the experiences you have in that state is what makes a difference, but one which isn't necessarily based on truisms.

If you experience an OBE in the waking state, it is more likely that your thalamus, or some other brain region, played a dissociative trick on you. Nothing leaves the body. Consciousness is not tangible nor is it a thing apart from bodies. Consciousness is merely phenomenal because of the impact environments have on physical systems which have the ability to process information.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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