Being a Well Liked Person

For all other chat which isn't directly related to lucid dreaming and the world of sleep and dreams.
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HAGART
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby HAGART » 03 Jul 2014 15:39

I woke up and had a thought.
Indeed I am a hypocrite, as hard as that is to admit. But what's my alternative? Be called a VEGAN! :?
That's a really tough choice! I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, and don't know what's worse! ;) :lol:

I still recommend those links I posted yesterday, and wonder if you guys watched them? They're short, but say a lot.

nesgirl wrote:As long as I program a robot just right, the robot will do exactly as I tell it to, and I can talk to the robot as much as I want.


Aren't we all robots? Organic machines. And I am just words on a screen on your machine, so it's comfortable to talk as if we are just robots. Whether you know it or not though, I am your friend. We are not best friends in the inner circle, but due to forums like this, we are part of a larger social circle and influence each other. You seem anti-friendship, and I like to annoy you by saying this... I AM YOUR FRIEND!

I feel like Ernie talking to Oscar The Grouch! :P
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby Summerlander » 03 Jul 2014 19:56

@ Hagart:

I've decided to reply to some of the statements you made and I will eventually watch your videos (I am guilty of ignoring the links). :mrgreen:

I do change my mind about this though. This made me re-think my analogy and I should have known better


I can't tell you how many times I have changed my mind. But the fun is in re-thinking what we think we know in the face of new information. Why should we cling to certain beliefs and uncertainties and close our minds off to new info? Why narrow our perspective of the world? I only wish enlightened people had been more candid with me earlier in my life instead of worrying about offending me by expressing opposition to my views. :|

I applaud you for being honest in saying that you have changed your mind in the course of our discussion. I wish I had some of this honesty and humility when I first started socialising online. Those are very admirable qualities. And whether you expect, desire or are indifferent to how others view you after such admission, you have potentially increased your chances of being a well liked person in these circles regardless. 8-)

They are basically the same as far as intelligence, and very similar, and any other 'colour' in between (other animals, and life) are still just a collection of atoms with what I think have feelings whether others notice it or not. And the feelings I attributed to them all was just an emotional illusion of empathy, (or selectively ignoring it) as a mental-self-defense-mechanism to keep me 'moral', so I 'can sleep at night'. (We humans are ultimately so selfish...)


Interesting psychology behind the scenes there. I have something similar going on in my head. I can hear pigs squealing before they are slaughtered - and I feel for them - but I am still quite happy to eat them (even after learning that they are "closer cousins" to humans than dogs). I still wouldn't eat a dog though. I have started reading "The Moral Landscape" by Sam Harris (finished his essay on "Lying") and it is astonishing to learn, or be reminded of, the various things that we humans tell ourselves in a process of self-deception that will somehow retain our sense of being moral and be convincing enough to the point where we presume to already know what's best for us. :|

I'm not saying it's immoral to eat meat. Just saying, if you want some, look it in the eyes, and kill it yourself. If you can't do that, than don't go to a grocery store and get it wrapped in plastic!


I see the value of this statement and this is indeed what some individuals need to hear. But some could make the argument that they would rather have others slaughter animals for their consumption. They could say things like, "I'd rather not get my hands dirty." Another form of retaliation that you would have to prepare yourself for in a debate would be the reasoning that if you don't eat meat the animals will have perished in abattoirs in vain. The meat industry will go on and pigs will continue to be slaughtered as long as some of us have a gustatory penchant for pork. :shock:

EDIT:

Just watched the short videos you posted! The internet certainly helped to increase our Dunbar's number and it is indeed true that eating meat helped us to develop our brains (how animals first shaped our minds). Eventually we formed a bond which started from the earliest humans studying animals and talking advantage of them. Have you check out documentaries about the cat's evolution and how it came to be domesticated? The little silvesters began to hunt and kill pests for us and we provided food and shelter in return. So cool! :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby HAGART » 03 Jul 2014 22:12

Glad you watched those. It's food for thought in tiny, bit-sized, pieces.

Whenever we have a discourse, ask yourself this... what was the point? What did you learn or gain? (Not what did you say.)
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby Summerlander » 04 Jul 2014 00:21

Yeah, point taken. Sometimes I revise everything for fun and ask myself if I was a well liked person during the discourse. If not, it is usually enough for me to like myself. :-D

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby HAGART » 07 Jul 2014 05:53

It's all perception. Summerlander has been on the other end of 'hate mail' in some topics and been called a 'troll' in another, but he doesn't let it bother him. (I hope you don't, because I'm on your side, even if we disagree on a few things).

Summerlander and Snaggle are "frenemies". ;) (They don't hate each other, and just love to argue....)

If you feel people hate you, Nesgirl, it was because you projected your own feelings on to others. I was the same way, but am changing for the better.

(And guess what, Dream Characters react the same way.... think about that ;) )
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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HAGART
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby HAGART » 07 Jul 2014 08:34

We also project feelings and emotions into dogs, cats, teddy bears, and even a volley ball we painted a face on and named, Wilson. (From the movie, Castaway, but good analogy).

The same goes for dream characters. It's in our human nature. What came first? It was our need for one that created it in the first place, not the other way around. (I'm still surprised by what they say and how they act, but why do we have people in dreams so often?) It's human nature... we are so social!

You might think you aren't but hey, you're here on this website and meeting new people aren't you. ;)

But ask yourself this: What is a fight when it's only words? It's nice to have adversaries and rivals, but they are not enemies. (I have a different perspective, that's all).
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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HAGART
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby HAGART » 07 Jul 2014 09:25

I'll add this:

I too don't bring up my lucid dreams at the dinner table or around the water cooler discussions. ( I felt like others didn't understand and I felt like an outcast too, so yea, I agree and I learned to hold back. They weren't my enemies, just idiots! ;) )

But on a forum like this, anything goes and we're all friends here. 8-)

(We totally went off tangent from the main topic and OP, but whatever).
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

Snaggle
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby Snaggle » 08 Jul 2014 11:44

Summerland on topic
Just be yourself. I hardly ever talk to strangers. Most of the time I just think of people as noisy furniture, especially on crowded buses, and when they are young and stupid and I just want them to shut the fuck up....Yeah, you also don't want to come across as a bleating pain in the ass. Moreover, think about what could happen if you strike up a conversation with some psychopath who develops an unhealthy obsession with you. Socialising in this manner can be a great boon in widening your network and enriching conviviality, but it invites a greater possibility of danger, too. ...Unfortunately, our world is not uncorrupted. It is multicoloured with personalities with all sorts of hidden agendas. The introvert is safer than the extrovert in the same manner that the monogamist is safer than the polygamist, and, if your friend one day realises this, he may want to be more like you. I'm sorry if I sound cynical but I am only trying to be realistic here. Perhaps save your keen, forthcoming side for those occasions when you may wish to seduce your "object" of attraction. (And pick wisely.)

Never mind being well liked! If this becomes your main focus you will drive yourself insane. Do what comes natural to you instead of trying to live to entertain others.


* Point one: yes Summerland you're cold and have dehumanized others and shown at the same time what's wrong with that. Point two: Psychopaths are generally just going to ignore one if one is warm towards them – they're both cold and malicious and think of them as just objects. It's pretty unlikely that a relationship will be formed with them or that they'll become obsessed with someone else. Point three: knowledge is power, socializing with others allows one to detect their strengths and weaknesses. This knowledge allows one to avoid their strengths and manipulate them into situations where their weaknesses will become critical traps that defeat, destroy or ruin them. The person who does not socialize with his enemies is the one who is not “safe”. I agree with Sun Tzu [if one knows oneself and one's enemies one does not need to fear defeat in a hundred battles]. Point five: one does not even know if there is any chemistry between you and a member of the opposite sex unless one socializes and flirts with them – that socializing and flirting builds desire and affection in both parties too.

Summerland
Isn't it funny that this mentality about animals being good no matter what still prevails in this day and age. A crocodile bites a man's arm off in a zoo and nothing happens to the animal (and it shouldn't because it is in its nature to attack). The victim might even live to tell the tale and laugh about it later with his friends whilst feeding the very same croc at the zoo! If a psychotic human maims an unfortunate soul, the corollary of the situation is quite different. Despite being a victim of his brain physiology, the deranged individual is ostracised. (And often punished in order to give the rest of the community a false sense of justice.)

Not too long ago [August 1, 1966] there was a guy called Charles [Witman](I forget his second name) who went on a killing spree in America. He had murdered his wife, kids, and parents [he murdered his mother, then his wife and then 16 random strangers at his university in Texas]. He was out of control and the media surely labelled him a monster. Eventually, the police executed him [ he died in a shootout with three police officers who attempted to sneak up on him ]. But here is a profound twist: a suicide letter was found on him. (He knew he was going to be killed.)[he left this note with his mother's body] The letter explained that he could not account for his behaviour and that he loved his family very much. He felt that there was something wrong with him and requested for an autopsy to be performed on his cadaver, stressing that his brain should be studied. When they finally opened his brain, a tumour was found to be pushing against his amygdala (the centre of our emotions) [it was found between the occipital and temporal lobes – no where near the amygala . The minute you learn that the killer was a victim of his physiology is when you realise that he is not truly culpable and the massacre should be viewed as nothing but a terrible accident where many perished. Just something to ponder over... ...I would also argue that nobody can truly be held accountable for anything because there is no such thing as free will. (But this is another topic.) Even the psychos who are tumour-free are victims of their own brain chemistry which they did not pick. So, control is illusory.



*Summerland this is a scientific hoax, not different than the old hoax that moths turned black by soot being an example of modern evolution. Witman was on and a chronic abuser of Dexedrine/Dextroamphetamine [eating them like popcorn according to a friend], a drug known to have these side effects: bipolar like affects with swings between euphoria and depression; anxiety and paranoia; delusions and hallucinations; also to cause headaches. He before his murder spree was known: to have criminal tendencies [he was a deer poacher]; to be a second generation wife beater and to have violent thoughts of mass murder. Hint, Summerland, all habitual hunters have had impulses to play “the most dangerous game” (aka hunt humans). Considering that he had both a criminal and evil, he had nothing opposed to those impulses and decided to act them out. When one combines this with his chronic drug abuse one needs no other explanation of his behavior. Also, men whom beats their wives don't love them. Love makes one gentle and affectionate towards its object.

Summerland
In fact, what you decide to do in a lucid dream is constrained by urges that you did not author. Such impulses arise from your unconscious side and their origin are often unknown to the self. You may decide what you decide but you don't get to decide what you are going to decide. You can't even predict what you will be thinking next (and I bet you couldn't predict all your responses to my posts either prior to having been exposed to them). All of this just proves my point: there is no free will....If you don't believe me, you can refer to Libet's experiments where the relevant motor parts of the brain activate before an individual becomes aware of deciding to move a limb. If you still insist that free will is not an illusion and that the universe is not deterministic dure to cause and effect, then give me a genuine example of free will seen as this subject is appearing to be apropos to the topic. (Bear in mind that you did not pick your genome, your family, your gender, your ethnic origin, your life's events which influenced you etc.) Ultimately, I contend that we cannot truly be blamed for anything just as praise is not ours to take for "our" achievements. The authorship belongs to the Big Bang that set everything in motion in this universe.


* Summerland this is truly sad, you've dehumanized yourself just as you've dehumanized others. One needs to gain knowledge of oneself to gain what freedom there is of will. Everything one does is something one has chosen to to and ones entire mind is plastic and can be molded into any form one desires. Any lucid dreamer potentially has more knowledge of themselves and experiences that can lead to changes caused by the environment or by genetic personality programs. It does not matter whether free will or determinism is correct – one is never a robot following programs unless one has chosen to be one. One become free and pure when one loves oneself. Genuine self-love is as vital morality as the love of others. Those without it betray themselves to act out their self-hate (aka guilt) and then further act it out by remorse where they punish themselves – LOL be true to oneself and change oneself if one makes a mistake!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nesgirl
We'll see how long it will last. There are a couple of users who hate me already on here (not saying who they are). Not that I am anti-friendship, it is just that I tend to make enemies a lot easier than I make friends, and I really don't care for having more enemies to deal with, and I would rather avoid making friends than have more enemies to deal with.


* I doubt that anyone hates you at this site. Almost everyone is mature and rational here. One has to be extremely immature to hate someone because of anything they say at a forum.
"There is only one God and his name is Death.
And there is only one thing we say to death "not today"
- Syrio Forel

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Summerlander
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby Summerlander » 09 Jul 2014 19:02

Thank you for your input, Snaggle! I only deem it worthwhile, however, to address two points that you've made... :)

The first is about the illusion of free will. The absence of free will does not, in any way, dehumanise us. And if you look deeper into this subject, you will realise that free will is simply an incoherent concept. I will leave you here with something to think about:

"The laws of nature do not strike most of us as incompatible with free will because we have not imagined how human action would appear if all cause-and-effect relationships were understood." - Sam Harris

The second is about Charles Whitman (thanks for reminding me of his name but your info is incorrect and a "friend's" testimony, if there ever was one, is unreliable and therefore unscientific to assume it is true). And no, the case is most certainly not a "scientific hoax." (Where did you hear that?) :D

"Post-mortem autopsy of his brain revealed a glioblastoma multiforme tumor the size of a walnut, erupting from beneath the thalamus, impacting the hypothalamus, extending into the temporal lobe and compressing the amygdaloid nucleus (Charles J. Whitman Catastrophe, Medical Aspects. Report to Governor, 9/8/66)."

http://brainmind.com/Case5.html

Oh, before I forget, about psychopaths you said:

Psychopaths are generally just going to ignore one if one is warm towards them – they're both cold and malicious and think of them as just objects. It's pretty unlikely that a relationship will be formed with them or that they'll become obsessed with someone else.


Really!!!? So you think they don't exhibit predatory behaviour and have a tendency to guilt-trip altruistic individuals to their advantage? :mrgreen:
Last edited by Summerlander on 09 Jul 2014 19:15, edited 1 time in total.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Being a Well Liked Person

Postby HAGART » 09 Jul 2014 19:12

I keep saying I'm just an "Organic Machine" too and liken myself to a robot.

I am just chemistry of amino acids, protein chains, and hormones... etc..... Sounds dehumanizing, but that's only when I sit back and think logically. But I realize I am not logical most of the time and even admit I'm a hypocrite at times, but hey, aren't we all.

I'm only human. ;)
Last edited by HAGART on 09 Jul 2014 19:21, edited 1 time in total.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.


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