Lucid Dreamers and God

For those who wish to discuss the purely scientific aspects of sleep and dreams, including new research and future technologies.

Have you ever tried to communicate with God in the phase state (LD/OOBE/AP)?

Yes, and I was successful
5
9%
Yes, but nothing happened
2
4%
Yes, but what was encountered was a product of my mind
6
11%
No, but I am willing to try
28
50%
No, and I'm reluctant to try out of fear
0
No votes
No, and I never will (I'm an atheist who doesn't see any point)
15
27%
 
Total votes: 56

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Summerlander » 03 Oct 2014 00:24

Actually, as I pointed out in the "Religion and politics: Iraqi Crisis" thread, Hitler was not an atheist. He believed that he was guided by "Providence" and subscribed to the occult and nordic rites. He once even referred to this providence as God in a speech and Mein Kampf clearly justifies the percecution of Jews as God's will. He also made a pact with the Vatican and he never officially renounced Christianity either. So there you have it: a Christian who is responsible for the Holocaust.

Many religious people play the Hitler card in order to argue that atheism is just as destructive. But this has been refuted a thousand times. You could have gone for Stalin, who was in fact an atheist, but then again Stalin did what he did for his own doctrine: his twisted brand of Marxism! And he also employed a pseudo-scientist, Lysenko, in order to mislead his countrymen. He took advantage of many servile people from the old Czarist empire, and simply introduced his dictatorship where he, the head of the state, was to be begged and revered like a superman. Their human god!

To have any sort of argument against what I propose as the best society to have, you'd have to show me a nation who subscribed to the teachings of Lucretius, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Darwin, Newton, Voltaire, Einstein, Dawkins, Hitchens...and other members of the Enlightenment, standing for science and reason, and still fell quarry to war, famine, disease, and depression. I think you won't find one. Not even the Netherlands or Sweden, who have the lowest crime rate and are the most secular, are on that level.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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buildit
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby buildit » 03 Oct 2014 00:57

Summerlander wrote:Actually, as I pointed out in the "Religion and politics: Iraqi Crisis" thread, Hitler was not an atheist. He believed that he was guided by "Providence" and subscribed to the occult and nordic rites. He once even referred to this providence as God in a speech and Mein Kampf clearly justifies the percecution of Jews as God's will. He also made a pact with the Vatican and he never officially renounced Christianity either. So there you have it: a Christian who is responsible for the Holocaust.

Many religious people play the Hitler card in order to argue that atheism is just as destructive. But this has been refuted a thousand times. You could have gone for Stalin, who was in fact an atheist, but then again Stalin did what he did for his own doctrine: his twisted brand of Marxism! And he also employed a pseudo-scientist, Lysenko, in order to mislead his countrymen. He took advantage of many servile people from the old Czarist empire, and simply introduced his dictatorship where he, the head of the state, was to be begged and revered like a superman. Their human god!

To have any sort of argument against what I propose as the best society to have, you'd have to show me a nation who subscribed to the teachings of Lucretius, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Darwin, Newton, Voltaire, Einstein, Dawkins, Hitchens...and other members of the Enlightenment, standing for science and reason, and still fell quarry to war, famine, disease, and depression. I think you won't find one. Not even the Netherlands or Sweden, who have the lowest crime rate and are the most secular, are on that level.

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Well at least you hold Christians to a higher standard than the atheist. But per your request for an atheist who was an evil monster many people agree that Napoleon Bonaparte, heavily involved in the anti-clerical French Revolution, was atheist – he claimed that “all religions have been made by men”. He was one of the best ever military commanders, and conquered much of Europe. He staged a coup and declared himself Emperor. While he ended anarchy in post-Revolution France, many considered him a tyrant and usurper. He ignored treaties and conventions, seeking undisputed rule throughout Europe. He plundered conquered territories. His 17 years of rule resulted in the bankruptcy of France, loss of many of her territories, six million dead Europeans and economic setback in just one generation.
How about Kim Jong-Il? The de facto leader of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, and responsible for the deaths of four million of his fellow Koreans. He is also at the heart of a bizarre personality cult; apocryphal stories such as how “at the time of his birth there were flashes of lightening and thunder, the iceberg in the pond on Mt. Paektu emitted a mysterious sound as it broke, and bright double rainbows rose up” are abundant. Those caught stealing food in the famine-struck nation, or attempting to cross the borders, are subject to public execution. Kim is continuing his lavish lifestyle and military obsession in spite of the crumbling economy. In North Korea he and his father are deified, considered saviors of the whole universe. 250,000 dissidents are confined to “re-education camps”. He has waged a war on South Korea that involved assassinating South Korean leaders and blowing up South Korean planes. He presents a great threat to the world in terms of nuclear warfare, having persuaded the Soviet Union to award him a nuclear reactor in 1984.

Blaming religion for the lack of moral character is like blaming color of skin. It's just a form of bigotry which humans are so good at. :?
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Summerlander » 03 Oct 2014 01:19

Napolean also ignored the teachings of men of the Enlightenment, like Thomas Paine, who also said all religions are manmade - he was a Deist (but venial for his time since science was in its infancy. Like Stalin, Napolean went after the Church for their power, not in the name of disbelief (in God) aka atheism. Your racial analogy also does not wash. Religion texts explicitly exude immorality. Cherry-pickers just ignore the bad parts. And if you are one of those who subscribes to the silly word "Islamophobia," ask yourself why most people think "Muslim" when they hear "suicide bomber." And what do you think the 9/11 hijackers believed in anyway? The Devil? Were they atheists too? Religion makes sane peole commit crazy things...

The Kim family established a necrocracy where the dead leader lives in the son. He is god to those people. At some point they must have read George Orwell's "Nineteen Eighty-Four" and thought, "This is doable." Don't be fooled by the titled "democracy" either. The regime there is not unlike Stalinism. They have established their own religion which subscribes to a form of reincarnation. This isn't promoting science, truth, and reason which naturally leads to atheism. This is promoting a form of theistic fantasy that keeps the people dumb. It's sadomasochism out there. Poor example again, mate.

About Jesus, this is found in John 15:6: "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Luke 19:27: "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them before me."

EDITED

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Last edited by Summerlander on 03 Oct 2014 02:13, edited 6 times in total.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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buildit
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby buildit » 03 Oct 2014 01:52

Summerlander wrote:About Jesus, this is found in John 15:6: "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

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Read the whole section Jesus is describing what happens to those within who he does not exist. They wither and like a dead branch are gathered my men and burned. So again, where does Jesus tell his disciples to kill and slaughter the nonbelievers? Or anyone for that matter? Maybe if you read about christ you might find he was not the jerk that people who were forced by over protective parents to study in Catholic School remember because the priest was a child molestor.
In the end I am sorry we disagree. I'm sorry you hate religion. For whatever we or those saying they represented religion did "I" apologize. However, like rounding up ever lucid dreamer and calling them a nut case, you would be wrong and have over simplified everything. You argue your point well and I fear if I continue to debate you I will become heated and impolite. So I will have to bow out and hope someday you find the side of religion that helps people become more than they are.
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Summerlander » 03 Oct 2014 02:09

I edited my last post. Go read it, my friend. ;-)
On religion: there is no peaceful religion. It stultifies the human race and hinders progress.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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buildit
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Location: USA

Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby buildit » 03 Oct 2014 03:33

Summerlander wrote:Luke 19:27: "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them before me."

EDITED

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Christ was speaking of their wealth not people. Interpretation varies but suffice it to say if you read the context of what is said, nobody is killed. The book describes Christs views and issues with wealth.
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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buildit
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby buildit » 03 Oct 2014 03:59

nesgirl wrote:
buildit wrote:
Summerlander wrote:Luke 19:27: "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them before me."

EDITED

[ Post made via Android ] Image



Christ was speaking of their wealth not people. Interpretation varies but suffice it to say if you read the context of what is said, nobody is killed. The book describes Christs views and issues with wealth.


My Lucid Dream friend splash back in high school was wealthy, and yet she wasn't once a jerk back then. In fact she faced much of the same problems I did back then because she had probability Lucid Dreams like I had, and faced much persecution because of it. Actually she fit in with my group of Lucid Dreaming friends just as much as the rest of us, and probability didn't make too much of a difference to us.



You can be wealthy of spirit and wealthy of money. It's not a this or that situation ;-) However to those who Christ has given much is expected of them in giving. Otherwise you are selfish and not worth the gifts you have received. Make sense? :D
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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Peter
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Peter » 03 Oct 2014 04:55

never happening, I am anti-romantic


Nice post, I learned to never to say never as it always bites me but accepting of your view :)
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby Summerlander » 03 Oct 2014 10:45

@nesgirl: I have gone on a killing spree in a lucid dream before and got a big buzz out of it. But I am not a serial killer in real life though. :-D

@buildit: The argument from exegesis is a very lame one. Again, I pose the question: if scripture is the perfect word of God, why is it so incoherent. Why is it so equivocal to the point of leading to disagreements over interpretation and leading to war and conflict. It seems more like a sham to me. Moreover, where is the sense in having a supposedly perfectly innocent individual such as Jesus Christ to pay for the crimes committed by mankind? In the world that we live in today, an innocent going down for the crimes of another is an attrocity. It isn't justice because criminals should be accountable for their wrongdoing. The responsibility should be theirs. This point has already been raised almost three centuries ago by Thomas Paine in his book "Age of Reason."

I am also proud to say that I am an atheist who has raised thousands of pounds for my best man's nephew's son, who is only five and has a rare form of childhood cancer called Neuroblastoma. And I was never touched by Jesus Christ! This also brings me to the next issue: what sort of good god makes a child suffer like that?

And then the same is applicable to so-called salvation: Why did God create sinners only to punish them when He could just fix them? If He is powerless to make them see the light, if He is powerless to convince them, then He is not omnipotent.

And why did He create atheists? Why did He create people who would question everything, demand evidence (as they should), and expose the notion of faith for the ridiculous folly that it is?

I rest my case... :-D

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Lucid Dreamers and God

Postby HAGART » 04 Oct 2014 07:59

“Epicurus's old questions are still unanswered: Is he (God) willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? then whence evil?”

― David Hume


"We made God in our own image. "

- HAGART
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.


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