Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

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buildit
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby buildit » 15 Oct 2014 04:31

nesgirl wrote:Actually there is nothing more an anti-romantic person likes being told than that they are ugly-looking. And unfortunately, I don't think saying something like that will make someone like that go away. One time I actually mentioned something stunk in the room to make a guy go away, and obviously that didn't work

No this is what you tell a guy if he won't quit following you. You tell them to get lost, and bug off. Then if they start crawling on the ground and crying, you tell them to buck up, quit acting like an idiot in public, and start acting like a citizen.



You're making it too hard. Just mention that STD you got and the girls / guys will run for the exit. :lol:
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deschainXIX
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 15 Oct 2014 11:54

Sounds like some reactionary, ill-conceived dystopia based on your own lack of romance and sex and interaction. You must have some pretty interesting religious views to think romance is "inhuman and disgusting." Scientifically, absolutely nothing is MORE human or natural than sex. You should study a man named Sigmund Freud.

"You want a companion? Adopt a cat or a dog."
So it seems that not only do you want to condemn and "ban" romance, but you want to totally condemn any human interaction at all. (Unless of course you mean taking a dog as a sexual companion ... which makes you an advocate of bestiality.) No mentally healthy person thinks this is a good idea; in fact I'd be very worried if you ever seriously tried to advocate such ideals. It's something straight out of a George Orwell novel. Romance does not currently harm our lives in any way; contrarily it's how we find meaning and beauty in them. If everyone on the planet was a tight-lipped, black-turtleneck-wearing, sex-hating, isolationist prude, I'd probably blow my brains out :lol: . The term romance means more than the conventional, sexual definition: It represents art and imagination and sentimentality. Important things--the world need not be grey and colorless and cold. Free interaction between beings of the same intelligence and perception as yourself is vital to the human psyche. If you lived with a cat and no one else for your entire life, you would literally go insane.

You also seem to think that romance hindered social development.
Actually (and more pertinently to the topic) religion is what hindered scientific and societal progression for a long time. The emergence of the romantic era itself was a consequence of religion. Who knows where we would be now if we had had a Great Enlightenment in the 12th century. Religion, especially the Catholic Church, has always persecuted anyone who tried to even speculate or study the stars to find out what they were. This hindrance in many ways continues to anesthetize our rational human discourse.
(In fact, a generally prudish disgust and discomfort with sex in Western civilization originated with the Catholic Church and its Virgin Mary. Out society had been plagued with taking sex so seriously simply because they believe Mary got pregnant without any biological intercourse. Why the hell do people need to think that sex "means so much"? It doesn't. It's just a thing we living creatures like to do because it's fun. Get over yourselves.)
Again, if you want to be asexual, that's fine, but don't go around saying people who value their sexuality need to be exterminated. Also, I'm sure no one persecutes you because you are asexual. They probably persecute you because you have these radical political ideas about illegalizing sex. You don't see gay people trying to advocate everyone becoming homosexual. They simply want to be given equal rights and left alone. You should do the same.

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Well said.

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buildit
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby buildit » 16 Oct 2014 04:35

deschainXIX wrote:Also, I'm sure no one persecutes you because you are asexual. They probably persecute you because you have these radical political ideas about illegalizing sex.


I can see where someone with an asexual personality would feel persecuted if not totally alienated in our society. The world of advertising alone is 90% based on the use of sexual innuendo to sell and promote products world wide. If you need evidence of the grip that sexuality has on world society look at the killing of endangered Rhinos in Africa for what? A horn to be ground into a powder as an aphrodisiac! Sharkes killed in schools, dorsal fins removed and the rest discarded for shark fin soup another aphrodisiac. Simply put sex sells and if you're not buying the world becomes a rather lonely place. :|
I can see the frustration of trying to remain detached from the "game" all mammals play for mating rights. But I think someday if not sooner our species will need to detach ourselves from the reproductive imperative a bit more than we are in order to maintain perspectives on global resources, livable space considerations and the biodiversity that currently exists and keeps our ecology in balance. Otherwise I fear we face a malthusian dilemma in our future as populations continue to grow unchecked and the only possibility of reducing growth is mass war or a pandemic of mythical proportions knocking civilization back a few hundred years. :?
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buildit
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby buildit » 16 Oct 2014 05:12

nesgirl wrote:I agree with you mostly on that, but I think 100% would be a better idea. I mean we could clone instead. And that would mass reduce the population. And you are also correct about the population overgrowth. It would also help if we banned romance to help us further advance in technology, medical, and science advances, making the next generation even stronger.


Unfortunately making a unsexual and aphrophobic (I made a new term :lol:) society may never fly on the world stage. You may find individuals willing to live that way but policing the society will be difficult as will be controlling the sexual urges of those under 18 within it as it is illegal in the US to preform sexual orientation surgeries except in extreme cases where deemed necessary.

Maybe the easier route would be to develop a drug which blocks sexual impulses and improves concentration? ;)
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Summerlander
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 16 Oct 2014 16:54

deschainXIX wrote:Yes! :mrgreen: In my search for atheistic literature, I picked up Sam Harris's "The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason." Quite a good read, and I felt this thread was closely related.
Thought I'd mention some of the ideas brought up there. :D


Yes, Harris was mentioned a few pages back in relation to an argument he had with that dickhead actor Ben Affleck about Islam. Sam Harris is cool. I've read "The End of Faith," his amazing thesis "Free Will," his amazing arguments for science being better equipped to provide moral values in "The Moral Landscape," and I check his blog once in a while.

I've read other anti-religious literature like Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason," Richard Dawkins's "The God Delusion," and Christopher Hitchens's "God Is Not Great" and "The Portable Atheist."

At the moment I'm just about to finish reading Dawkins's "The Selfish Gene" which helped me to enrich my debate with nesgirl about her asexual solution to the world. LOL! I'm of the position that losing sex is a terrible thing. One can be sexual and sensible. :mrgreen:

deschainXIX wrote:Yeah, that's the reason I'll probably never have kids. Partially out of fear of messing up their development (it’s so easy to utterly fail your child and raise a nervous wreck if you haven't sufficiently read up on childhood psychology--although I'm sure that's not the case with you lol) and partially out of realizing what a terrible goddamn place the world is.


I want to share a poem with you by Philip Larkin: :mrgreen:

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.


Wow, an exorcism, that is pretty extreme. Although I certainly can relate. When I was young, my mother would walk around my room at night, waving a purple flag to "ward off the demons."


My mum used incense. Yeah, making me believe in spirits and demons certainly didn't help with the fear! :lol:

For example, when I was ten or so, my alcoholic mother got me out of school (a Christian private school that essentially crucified any student who uttered the accursed incantation “natural selection”) and told me I was the reason she drank and that I was full of demons et cetera, et cetera. Various bullshit things like this were regularities in our house, and I accepted them as natural, healthy behavior. In fact, in response to Y2K, my dad was going to sell his million-dollar company, make our family join a nudist cult in Maine, renounce all technology, and hunker down with a bunch of other fruitcake Christians. Luckily my mother put the brake on that one. :lol:


That is some fucked up shit! Like my mum, your parents sound like they needed a dose of enlightenment! :D

Sounds like some reactionary, ill-conceived dystopia based on your own lack of romance and sex and interaction. You must have some pretty interesting religious views to think romance is "inhuman and disgusting." Scientifically, absolutely nothing is MORE human or natural than sex. You should study a man named Sigmund Freud.


Nailed it again. 8-)

Now here is a zany so-called liberalist student union that voted against condemning Islamic State fighters for fear that it is "Islamophobic." Just when you thought the world couldn't get crazier:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2794183/national-union-students-refuses-condemn-isis-fears-islamophobic.html
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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deschainXIX
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 16 Oct 2014 19:50

Yeah, I saw that brawl. It was so funny how Affleck (AKA, Batman) just kept yelling about racism while Sam Harris was calm and coolly trying to reason with them. At one point you can see Sam just sort of give up and reach for his coffee mug while Maher and everyone else keep angrily arguing. :lol:

It's interesting. Our society literally defends beliefs systems that time and time again purport violence. I think it's because our societal politics are in many ways still influenced and encumbered by religion, and we're scared of the implications involved in totally discounting one religious dogma. If we discount Islam because it explicitly talks about violence, it will open the possibility of discounting the Bible, which also talks about violence against infidels, oh no!
I also love how people think being anti-Islam is racist. I don't know if they know this, but belief systems have nothing to do with biology. People who are too-hardcore of a liberal don't understand that all ideas should be open to full criticism.
Our civilization has advanced beyond the days when we had full-out, well-defined wars over practical things like territory. Now, ultimately, we only have wars over Ideas. And the world needs to learn that some ideas are so so so wrong. Maybe that unquestionable idea about "right to 'belief'" should be reconsidered.
Well said.

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deschainXIX
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 17 Oct 2014 01:00

nesgirl wrote:It is not a terrible thing. It is an addiction. Someone I know was addicted to a drug, and thought it was a terrible thing to lose it, but finally got used to the fact that they could survive without it, and was able to get off of that drug.


Now, nesgirl, I didn't respond to your last response to me because, upon reading your post, I had the same profound realization that I had when I read over R99's last post in my "Does the Soul Exist?" thread: Some people just want to watch reason burn and there's no point in debating them because a preconceived idea has literally fused into their brain-stem. It's a waste of time and energy.

But I've had to hear this whole absolute nonsense about sexual activity being "addictive" so many times from you that I feel suddenly compelled to respond to that little pearl of wisdom for a variety of reasons--not the least among which being that you keep bringing up this anti-sexuality thing on an anti-religion thread.

First of all, if we're being excruciatingly generous here, your whole "metaphor" about drug addiction being comparable to sex absolutely does not work. Do you realize how insulting that is to people who have genuinely witnessed and suffered from addiction to a truly dangerous substance like methamphetamine? Drug addiction is a sickness that can totally destroy a person's life as a result of the detrimental nature of the drug. Contrarily, have you ever seen a person after they've had sex (clearly not)? They're relaxed, they feel fulfilled, they are simply content with being. They're not "disgusted" or "feel dehumanized." They feel love and contentment towards one another's existence. Comparing methamphetamine addiction to sex is laughable if not outright insulting. More enforcing evidence: A boy and a girl experience something called puberty, in which they feel this inexplicable inclination, this natural intuition or desire to have sex. Sex drive arises naturally during childhood development. Contrarily, I very seriously doubt that there has ever been a person on the face of the earth who has woken up one morning thinking, I really need to go try meth, right now. In fact, I NEED to. It's in my very NATURE to go try out meth. And this leads to my final, destroying point on this metaphor: Drugs are unnatural. Now you may be thinking to yourself, "Hey, marijuana is natural!" Marijuana is dismissed from your metaphor because it does not harm one's health, it does not destroy lives, and it is largely not addictive in natural--in fact it has many medicinal properties. But whether marijuana should be considered a bad or good thing is another argument entirely. The point is that drugs that are a big problem in our society are the unnatural ones. Sex is the absolute opposite! Sex is the perpetuation of the life and nature of complex organisms. Along with a multitude of other living, natural organisms, humans are inherently sexual creatures.

Sex is not addictive. At least not in the traditional sense. It is true that all humans (apart, of course, from asexuals) have a sex drive. But I would argue that this is a good thing, as it draws us humans together and lowers our feelings of prudishness and disdain towards one another. And even if sex was "addictive" in the sense that methamphetamine is, it would not harm people at all and actually would do the opposite.


nesgirl wrote:I don't get why you have to bash on your parents so much. WOW you 2 must hate your parents. I may be fierce rivals with my father and we get into heated arguments almost all the time because of our differences (actually he is a Democrat, so that would explain it), but still.


Summerlander has stated that he appreciated his mother despite all the things he mentioned. And I love both of my parents deeply. But that does not mean I am going to wrap myself in warm, fuzzy blankets of denial and ignorance over the fact that my childhood and psyche were seriously warped and damaged as a result of my parents's profound piety and dogmatism. I've had to struggle with crippling social anxiety, hatred of expressing emotions, closed-mindedness, rejection of science, and many other psychological wires that came loose as a result of the type of things I was exposed to (examples provided above). It is perfectly fine and healthy to critique anything and everything, and that includes discussing whether parenting methods were effective, what was wrong with them, what was right with them, etc. This is the only way you yourself can learn to be a better parent to your own offspring and a better member of society, in the case of having conservative psychopaths as parents.

You seem to think that criticism is indicative of hatred. That is almost as fascinatingly misinformed and ill-conceived as your fascist ideals of illegalizing procreation. :D

(Oh, and by the way, me criticizing your "anti-sex solution" is not me "hating" or "persecuting" you. You cannot play the victim card and use my criticism as an example of you getting hatred for being an asexual. I genuinely like your ideas about being personally anti-romance in the sense the you do not feel compelled by society to be a wholly sexual being, as much media purports and thrusts upon people. What I do not like, what does not hold water in the light of modernity and empathetic discourse, is you forcing those ideals upon others.
If you're so disgusted with people and their nasty, unnatural sexual habits, why don't you just leave them alone, eh? You're clearly the higher, more enlightened being. Just go be hermit.)
Well said.

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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 17 Oct 2014 10:40

I feel that you are misconstruing a lot of the statements that me and DeschainXIX made, nesgirl. I invite you to also read a book like "The Selfish Gene." That book is more about altruism than anything else. While genetic units are "selfish" in the way that they try to propagate themselves, at the level of bodies (vessels for genes) we see cooperation and altruism amongst populations as a more effective way to survive. The goal is ultimately selfish as it is in everybody's interests to survive (generally speaking). Even individuals who commit suicide in order to save a close younger relative are in fact favouring their genes. Human beings, by nature, propagate their genes and ensure their survival via copulation and meiosis. We didn't pick this. It was natural selection. Whatever route an organism happens to take in nature, there will always be parasites out there that will try to exploit its mode of survival. There are asexual creatures in the world that have their evolutionary battles and problems too. This is called nature.

By the way, guys, have you seen a film called "The Lone Survivor" starring Mark Wahlberg and Eric Bana? It is based on the true story of Operation Red Wings on the hills of Afghanistan. The Navy SEALs were there to neutralise an al-Qaeda operative as part of a mission ensuring that the country had its democratic elections unencumbered by Taliban operatives and Islamist nationals. It went wrong. It was horrible! Even a chinook was blown to smithereens. The locals were bullied into submission and some were beheaded if they were suspected of helping Americans. The Taliban army in question was later defeated but they subsequently sought reinforcements in Pakistan which led to further American missions. Any way, interesting history and great movie.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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deschainXIX
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby deschainXIX » 17 Oct 2014 12:01

Yeah, great movie. It was so realistic, some parts were rough to watch! Lol. Those guys took way more bullets than any human being should ever have to. And then when they had no choice but to literally jump down the mountainside? :( I don't really care for Mark Wahlberg, but he had an outstanding performance in that movie.

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Well said.

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Summerlander
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 18 Oct 2014 11:32

You see? You've misunderstood me again. It doesn't matter what the individual organism thinks or feels. It all starts with unconscious genetic units. It starts with the "selfish" gene. Genes have phenotypic effects on bodies. DNA replicates itself while bodies, in general, don't. Genes have the potential to be immortal and survive for many generations. Bodies have short lives as they are just vessels. The suicidal person who risks his life to save that of a younger relative is in actual fact aiding the survival of the genes they share. The suicidal person's genes "live" inside the younger relative. The suicidal person is not thinking about saving genes, of course, but he is thinking about saving a loved one. On the surface, by sacrificing himself, his actions are altruistic. At the level of the gene, they are selfish. I hope you get it know. These are not opinions, nesgirl, they are scientific facts and have been mentioned in books like "The Selfish Gene," "The Blind Watchmaker" and "The extended Phenotype."

@ deschainXIX: Tony Montana in Scarface might have taken more bullets! LOL. :-D

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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