Does the Soul Exist?

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Is there a soul?

Humans have souls, but animals and other living things do not
1
6%
Both animals and humans have souls
6
38%
The soul does not exist
6
38%
Other
3
19%
 
Total votes: 16

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buildit
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby buildit » 24 Oct 2014 22:52

HAGART wrote:I remember questioning the existence of a 'soul' a while ago. (June 2012)
http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1671

It's interesting to look back and read what we all said back then. In two years I haven't changed a bit and neither has anyone else.


It's because just as those with instruments can claim nothing has been found others can claim the instruments are not sensitive enough or the science advanced enough to detect. I am actually playing with an idea that the soul doesn't enter another dimension upon death as some suggest but in fact exists at a quantum level. In a way it makes sense as it appears quantum particles store far more energy than macro elements. Just look at the power released in an atomic explosion vs the negligible energy released from any macro element based propellant explosion.
I'll continue to meditate upon this idea but so far it presents fascinating repercussions. Imagine the mental energy being subjugated to the realm of the sub atomic. The phrase that keeps haunting me is "The very small is much harder to control than the very large". It came to me in a dream. :D
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 25 Oct 2014 00:34

@deschainXIX: I've said some idiotic stuff before too. And it's funny when we look back and recognise this. People do change. At least we can see that we have progressed and that we are truly open-minded (better way to put it than fickle).

If we were truly fickle before then at least we should count ourselves as lucky for having stumble upon the path of science and reason. We merely want facts, that's all. I don't care if the truth sounds harsh to me or others. There is no free will? So what? I can't still enjoy the illusion of being free. There is no soul? Well, I appreciate being alive and being able to marvel at the universe. I can marvel at the sense of self knowing there is no self in the metaphysical sense as far as I'm aware and as evidence points to its absence. There is no God? Thank God! :-D

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

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buildit
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby buildit » 25 Oct 2014 03:44

Summerlander wrote:@deschainXIX: I've said some idiotic stuff before too. And it's funny when we look back and recognise this. People do change. At least we can see that we have progressed and that we are truly open-minded (better way to put it than fickle).

If we were truly fickle before then at least we should count ourselves as lucky for having stumble upon the path of science and reason. We merely want facts, that's all. I don't care if the truth sounds harsh to me or others. There is no free will? So what? I can't still enjoy the illusion of being free. There is no soul? Well, I appreciate being alive and being able to marvel at the universe. I can marvel at the sense of self knowing there is no self in the metaphysical sense as far as I'm aware and as evidence points to its absence. There is no God? Thank God! :-D


You ever consider the possibility you gave up too easy? I'm amazed by the number of people in science and medicine I meet who have become christians or maybe spiritual because they have experienced things outside their ability for rational explanation. We don't like to talk about them because we DO sound like the very crack pots we make fun of. :roll: I am glad for mystery in the universe even if it's only an illusion that makes us doubt our smug self assured assumptions of what we think is real.
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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HAGART
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby HAGART » 25 Oct 2014 06:20

I said a few things too I regret and I have changed opinions over time. It's not fickle or a weakness. It's actually the smartest thing anyone can do. This forum has been a place of learning for me. I think the word, 'Forum' comes from ancient Greece and it was a place of learning through an open sharing of ideas. It sure beats the rigid curriculum of our modern schools! I think I've learned more here than I ever can reading a book.

There was one time I shocked Summerlander when I admitted I was wrong and he persuaded me. It happens sometimes and if you are not married to an idea and put your ego aside it's actually quite easy to do. Then other times I like to play Devil's Advocate just for fun.

So back to the soul. Many people wonder about that and it reminds me of Frankenstein's Monster. You can piece together all the body parts, but something is missing. Of course, back then electricity was a novel idea so a bolt of lightening did the trick. I don't know what it is, but I think we all agree there is something not quite right and perhaps there is a missing puzzle piece in the equation. (I didn't provide an answer. I'm just putting another log on this fire and warming my soul!) ;)

(My answer to the poll was there is no soul. I think it's an illusion just like free will is. Not to say it doesn't exist, but being an illusion simply means we have been looking at it wrong this whole time.)
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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buildit
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby buildit » 25 Oct 2014 13:22

HAGART wrote:So back to the soul. Many people wonder about that and it reminds me of Frankenstein's Monster. You can piece together all the body parts, but something is missing. Of course, back then electricity was a novel idea so a bolt of lightening did the trick. I don't know what it is, but I think we all agree there is something not quite right and perhaps there is a missing puzzle piece in the equation. (I didn't provide an answer. I'm just putting another log on this fire and warming my soul!) ;)

(My answer to the poll was there is no soul. I think it's an illusion just like free will is. Not to say it doesn't exist, but being an illusion simply means we have been looking at it wrong this whole time.)


My out of the box thinking has been mulling over the general concept that the body is like a vessel where the "soul" grows and forms. I'm giving soul a wide description but i'm thinking mental energy of some sort. At natural death the soul is forced / released from the protective husk which was our body, like a embryo which leaves the egg. There is no science to this line of thinking yet and is total conjecture. But it provides me with some interesting mental gum to chew. :lol: This idea of course is loosely combined with the Quantum theory above.
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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deschainXIX
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby deschainXIX » 25 Oct 2014 22:15

Summerlander wrote:If we were truly fickle before then at least we should count ourselves as lucky for having stumble upon the path of science and reason. We merely want facts, that's all. I don't care if the truth sounds harsh to me or others. There is no free will? So what? I can't still enjoy the illusion of being free. There is no soul? Well, I appreciate being alive and being able to marvel at the universe. I can marvel at the sense of self knowing there is no self in the metaphysical sense as far as I'm aware and as evidence points to its absence. There is no God? Thank God!


Exactly my disposition.

buildit wrote:You ever consider the possibility you gave up too easy? I'm amazed by the number of people in science and medicine I meet who have become christians or maybe spiritual because they have experienced things outside their ability for rational explanation. We don't like to talk about them because we DO sound like the very crack pots we make fun of. I am glad for mystery in the universe even if it's only an illusion that makes us doubt our smug self assured assumptions of what we think is real.


Just because something is beyond your personal ability to rationalize and explain does not mean that it cannot be rationalized or explained.

HAGART wrote:So back to the soul. Many people wonder about that and it reminds me of Frankenstein's Monster. You can piece together all the body parts, but something is missing. Of course, back then electricity was a novel idea so a bolt of lightening did the trick. I don't know what it is, but I think we all agree there is something not quite right and perhaps there is a missing puzzle piece in the equation. (I didn't provide an answer. I'm just putting another log on this fire and warming my soul!)


Yeah, good point. But I think that feeling that people get is just a result of humanity being the most sentient and intelligent and dominant species on the planet (as far as we know). There are no other species that think and feel like us. It's just inter-special loneliness. If we ever discovered an alien race with a higher intelligent and sentience than ours perhaps people would start rethinking the idea of a soul.
Maybe when people say "soul," what they really mean is the human species' level of intelligence and sentience. But I don't know, even then it doesn't really make sense because in this case that would mean people with mental disabilities do not have souls. And that statement tends to alarm people lol. Scientifically (and rather coldly), however, a mentally deficient person should technically have a lower--I don't know--status? than an ordinary person. Because morality is defined by an individual's potential for suffering. We protect mammals more than insects because mammals are more capable of experiencing higher levels of suffering.

buildit wrote:My out of the box thinking has been mulling over the general concept that the body is like a vessel where the "soul" grows and forms. I'm giving soul a wide description but i'm thinking mental energy of some sort. At natural death the soul is forced / released from the protective husk which was our body, like a embryo which leaves the egg. There is no science to this line of thinking yet and is total conjecture. But it provides me with some interesting mental gum to chew. This idea of course is loosely combined with the Quantum theory above.


Yeah, the idea that the body is only a husk for the soul concealed inside which is released upon death is what everyone believes. It's not at all a profound "out of the box" theory about the notion of a soul.
Well said.

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HAGART
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby HAGART » 26 Oct 2014 02:09

I was thinking more about Frankenstein and have a good thought experiment. Imagine if you took a group of living people and through some advanced technology, perhaps nano-bots, you could disassemble them and piece them together to form a new being. It will be done very quickly before the body's cells die, and the nanobots would piece together all the parts seamlessly right down the the last capillary and neuron. (Using science-fiction just imagine it hypothetically).

We already know that organ transplants are possible, but imagine taking it to another level. An arm from one person and a pinky from another. Both eyes could be from different people. If there were 20 people, each finger and toe could be from a different donor. That's easy to imagine and the resulting person would be whoever's brain was transplanted.

But now think about this! The brain was not transplanted as a whole from a single donor, but it too is made of many parts. The amygdala from one person, the hippocampus from another. The prefrontal cortex and pituitary gland all from different people.

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN!
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HAGART
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby HAGART » 26 Oct 2014 03:23

You have a one track mind, Nesgirl, and I never mentioned the transplanting of the reproductive organs. I was going to leave that up to everyone's imagination, but it was implied that they too would be transplanted intact. Of course if you choose, you could remove them if it's how you want to envision the thought experiment.

nesgirl wrote:I love your thinking Hagart!

You might want to take that back. With my thought experiment it's possible to have both a penis and a vagina! :D

I'm just pushing your buttons again. Sexuality is not the point of this. My point is where do all the souls go and is a new one created? Or perhaps there is no soul. We are like organic machines. Moist robots if you will. If you put all the pieces together are they compatible and will the 'freak of nature' have a consciousness? For all intent and purposes... will it have a soul?

(Another interesting thing to consider is the phenomenon of "Memory Transplant". Many people who get organ transplants change their behavior. I don't know much about it and it could just be Urban Legend, but thought I'd mention it.)
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buildit
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby buildit » 26 Oct 2014 04:14

deschainXIX wrote:Yeah, the idea that the body is only a husk for the soul concealed inside which is released upon death is what everyone believes. It's not at all a profound "out of the box" theory about the notion of a soul.

Really, the idea of the soul growing in the body like an embryo and then embarking into the quantum realm is old news? I had no idea you had already come up with this idea. Could you share the other ideas you already have had so I don't duplicate any more of your work?
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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deschainXIX
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby deschainXIX » 26 Oct 2014 19:12

nesgirl wrote:on't insult people who have handicaps.


Relax. I wasn't insulting anyone. I was saying that the idea that the soul is merely humanity's unique level of intelligence and sentience leads to implications that no one really wants to think about.
Anyone who thinks that I was insulting mentally deficient persons out of spite or hatred or ignorance is not paying attention.

HAGART wrote:But now think about this! The brain was not transplanted as a whole from a single donor, but it too is made of many parts. The amygdala from one person, the hippocampus from another. The prefrontal cortex and pituitary gland all from different people.


Yeah, I've thought about that and it truly is fascinating. I think it goes along with the whole idea about the illusion of "the self." If you were to do something like this, a wholly different and unique individual would be produced. There really is no such thing as the "self." Every single moment that passes results in the creation of a being completely separate from the being that you were in the previous moment. It's maddening, if you think about it.

HAGART wrote:You have a one track mind, Nesgirl, and I never mentioned the transplanting of the reproductive organs. I was going to leave that up to everyone's imagination, but it was implied that they too would be transplanted intact. Of course if you choose, you could remove them if it's how you want to envision the thought experiment.


Finally someone said it. :lol:

HAGART wrote:(Another interesting thing to consider is the phenomenon of "Memory Transplant". Many people who get organ transplants change their behavior. I don't know much about it and it could just be Urban Legend, but thought I'd mention it.)


Indeed. Another example of the absence of the self. Especially (since we are sexual beings) in the event of the removal or replacement of sexual organs. That really changes everything about a person.
If you've ever owned a male cat you know what I mean. They're these totally primitive, badass outlaws, hunting and killing things and leaving gory messes everywhere for you to clean up ... until you neuter them. Then they become these weakling, quiet little mouses that sallow around with their heads down, usually only getting up to eat from the milk dish you leave for them.

buildit wrote:Really, the idea of the soul growing in the body like an embryo and then embarking into the quantum realm is old news? I had no idea you had already come up with this idea. Could you share the other ideas you already have had so I don't duplicate any more of your work?


Calm down. I simply found it funny how you always call yourself an "out of the box" thinker.
I'm also desperately confused as to how you thought that I was the one to come up with that idea. I don't believe in a soul, remember? Remember every single post I've made on this thread?
Yes, your ideas are old news. That's what most people who believe in a soul think, do you understand? I stated this in my original comment, but you seem to have skimmed over that detail. Anyway ... as far as all of that quantum theory nonsense, it sounds an awful lot like an excuse, and a lame one. You could quite literally use quantum theory as an excuse for all sorts of nonexistent things.
Well said.


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