Does the Soul Exist?

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Is there a soul?

Humans have souls, but animals and other living things do not
1
6%
Both animals and humans have souls
6
38%
The soul does not exist
6
38%
Other
3
19%
 
Total votes: 16

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HAGART
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby HAGART » 26 Oct 2014 21:57

deschainXIX wrote:in the event of the removal or replacement of sexual organs. That really changes everything about a person.


It sure does. And not just spaying or neutering but also adding extra appendages. There are Shemales out there and don't look it up on the internet... Take my word for it! ;)

I only mention that for two reasons:
1. It has to do with my Frankenstein Thought Experiment.
2. (More importantly) I like to take an apposing side to Nesgirl for fun! When it comes to genitalia I say, the more the merrier! Why not? :mrgreen:

Ignoring all sense of self-identity, and whatever sexual-identity we have, at the core we are all the same being no different from anyone else or every other animal or plant for that matter. Maybe that's our 'soul' if you want to think about it poetically. It's not like we can take a picture of it. It's more of an idea in our minds.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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buildit
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby buildit » 26 Oct 2014 23:04

deschainXIX wrote: You could quite literally use quantum theory as an excuse for all sorts of nonexistent things.


How true. It seems lots of theoretical scientists have already figured that out too. :roll: I am glad that you had heard about the idea of the body being an egg for the soul, I had never heard of it before. Ergo my out side the box comment. I figured as a follower of the prove it or it doesn't exist club you would be a person with limited imagination, so giving you credit was a kindness.
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 28 Oct 2014 10:58

It seems to me that quantum theory is another "God of the Gaps" get-out-of-jail free card for dualists and vitalists. Can't explain something? That's ok. It must be the quantum realm (and for some reason they think of it as a mystical place) since we don't understand it anyway. Quantum mechanics, as I have said before, fail to explain consciousness. This one arises when a brain has evolved complex enough. That's it. The idea that consciousness is all pervading is also just as bad as the Cartesian theatre. How is the homunculus or soul conscious? Another little guy inside them ad infinitum? It does not explain anything. It is a terribly lame idea and a copout that aims to perpetuate the mystery whilst failing to address the problem properly.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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buildit
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby buildit » 28 Oct 2014 11:34

Summerlander wrote:It seems to me that quantum theory is another "God of the Gaps" get-out-of-jail free card for dualists and vitalists. Can't explain something? That's ok. It must be the quantum realm (and for some reason they think of it as a mystical place) since we don't understand it anyway. Quantum mechanics, as I have said before, fail to explain consciousness. This one arises when a brain has evolved complex enough. That's it. The idea that consciousness is all pervading is also just as bad as the Cartesian theatre. How is the homunculus or soul conscious? Another little guy inside them ad infinitum? It does not explain anything. It is a terribly lame idea and a copout that aims to perpetuate the mystery whilst failing to address the problem properly.


I think NOVA did a whole show on the idea of theoretical science vs hypothetical science. The obvious difference was one could be tested yet it was pointed out science had theorized about atoms long before technology could detect items that size.
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 28 Oct 2014 12:20

Science includes hypotheses and rich theories as part of its methodology. Because of that, it has predictive power. Quantum theory works in practice even though the quantum mechanics themselves are not yet fully understood. Even if quantum mechanics alone were responsible for the emergence of consciousness (which they're not) this would still mean that a physical system is what begets a sense of self. Physicalism would still hold the answer that solves the puzzle. That's why they call it quantum physics!

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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buildit
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby buildit » 28 Oct 2014 21:52

Summerlander wrote:Science includes hypotheses and rich theories as part of its methodology. Because of that, it has predictive power. Quantum theory works in practice even though the quantum mechanics themselves are not yet fully understood. Even if quantum mechanics alone were responsible for the emergence of consciousness (which they're not) this would still mean that a physical system is what begets a sense of self. Physicalism would still hold the answer that solves the puzzle. That's why they call it quantum physics!

You dance and sing as well as the next guy but I'm still not buying a vacuum from you Mr. :lol: There is a whole lot of empty space and frankly as science has shown again and again, the truth is often stranger than fiction. Wasn't many years ago the idea of quantum entanglement would have earned you a seat before the tabloid papers. Now the research is exploding with excitement over how this can be used.
-Science gets things right sooner or later, it just take a lot longer than most people want to wait. I'm just still waiting for them to admit they discovered the soul, even if it doesn't fit the religious paradigm.
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 29 Oct 2014 03:06

If you want to believe in ghost stories, buildit, go right ahead. But just remember that science has a tendency to narrow those gaps that people like you love to fill with fantasy. Just wait for the day when science develops a cogent theory for quantum gravity which explains away all the "spooky" stuff. Quantum entanglement isn't as mysterious as you think (or hope to be) and I have already explained why that is ages ago. If you are interested in quantum theory, try reading Brian Cox's "The Quantum Universe." I have. In there you will find a plausible explanation for entanglement within a theoretical model that describes the universe like a gravitational well.

I'll use the following analogy to quickly convey what the book propounds: The universe is like a bowl full of marbles. The marbles are the atoms that interact. Remove one from the base and you affect the position of the rest. No information travels faster than light. No laws are violated. It is merely a chain reaction exuding the illusion of "spookiness." Like general relativity breaking the speed of light but without doing so in a sense...

In the history of mankind, science is very recent. I'd say it's in its adolescence as it were. But already it has a tendency to dispel myths and inflate scepticism. We no longer see thunder and eclipses as works of the gods. We no longer deem waterfalls as miracles. Miracles of that magnitude no longer exist. They appear to have been reduced to seances that take place in dark rooms where credulous people get excited about raps on a table.

What does that tell you, buildit?

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby HAGART » 29 Oct 2014 05:51

Summerlander wrote:dualists and vitalists


I'm glad I have no idea what those mean, so I can see things without labels and won't even label myself. I'll let others do that. We all tend to polarize everything until we debate whether it was raining or if it was sprinkling. (Reference to that other thread I made...)

The original question was 4 words: Does the Soul Exist?
Funny how the answers are so long and it stirs up emotions, when the question was so simple.

I remember when I first brought it up, (shared the link earlier), I was amazed that life-and-death, and religion even entered the equation. I never asked that! The concept is merely is there a 'soul'?

Now Quantum Mechanics are part of the equation! :roll:

This all goes back in history to the core of all questions that have plagued humanity for all time:
Is it "wraining or spwinkling"? ;)
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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buildit
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby buildit » 29 Oct 2014 11:30

Summerlander wrote:What does that tell you, buildit?


It tells me we will either soon devalue life as only worth the cost of the chemicals a body is made of or we will find there is more to the picture than our instruments can see at current.
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 29 Oct 2014 11:58

@ Hagart: Ok. The shortest answer. There is no evidence that the soul exist. Plenty of evidence suggesting that it doesn't - particularly from the realm of neuroscience.

@ buildit: If a medium is found that appears to control bodies and survives their destruction, it will have to be a physical substance by default for how else can it interact with matter? Secondly, this soul still wouldn't explain consciousness. Scientists would have to ask what makes it consciously aware. Another soul inside? It still doesn't answer it. What about what makes that one conscious and the one inside it ad infinitum? What is the mechanism that makes it possible?

No soul, no self, not even ectoplasm is found in the bodies of living things. The Cartesian theory is so absurd that philosophy alone can expose it as non-explanatory. No evidence supports vitalism and those monists who say everything is made of consciousness are just talking out of their arses and not helping at all.

Finally, the absence of souls in living bodies doesn't have to devalue life. We can still love our relatives and friends and have a good time with them while we still can. We can also marvel at the universe and wonder how certain things happen. There is still so much to discover,so much to explore!

Isn't it amazing that nature stumbled upon a system of echolocation in bats over millions of years long before we developed radar and sonar? Isn't it wonderful that all life had simple mineral beginnings in the primordial soup and once a replicator molecule emerged, it led to the amazing complexity we see today? What about intelligent life out there?

Here is food for thought for those of you who think consciousness demands an elan vital. A long time ago, an inventor and a philosopher had a debate. The inventor said he was planning to construct a device that could record and later replay Beethoven's Ninth Symphony with lifelike fidelity. The philosopher said it was impossible on the basis that there are so many different voices of different ranges and timbres, bowed strings, brass, woodwind, percussion, and that therefore the recording device would have to be a monstrosity with millions of annotations and would require human slaves for the vocal parts.

The philosopher's argument may be compelling, but the inventor came up with the Fourier system that involves a single wavy line chiseled into a long-playing disc or magnetically represented on a tape or optically on the soundtrack of a film. The philosopher had mistaken his failure of imagination for an insight into necessity. The brain generates consciousness. It provides us with a sense of self. The self is an illusion - meaning it's not what it seems...

The physical universe is already wonderful enough, buildit.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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