Does the Soul Exist?

For all other chat which isn't directly related to lucid dreaming and the world of sleep and dreams.

Is there a soul?

Humans have souls, but animals and other living things do not
1
6%
Both animals and humans have souls
6
38%
The soul does not exist
6
38%
Other
3
19%
 
Total votes: 16

User avatar
deschainXIX
Posts: 890
Joined: 07 Aug 2013 18:18
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby deschainXIX » 20 Nov 2014 15:15

buildit wrote:Scientifically speaking it allows for conservation of energy on this planet. As life evolves the old versions are recycled back into the food web. Immortal life would clog up the system and result in a dead end for evolution. I hold to the scientific concept that life does seek and exploit all opportunities. Consciousness is one such opportunity life has come to exploit. Our brains were not originally set up to have consciousness so it is one example of "life" finding a way.
So how does this give evidence or create conditions for a soul?? Well, if consciousness is connected to a "soul" or some existence beyond the realm we can test currently, wouldn't life exploit that opportunity? Life seems to keep surprising us with the other avenues it takes to exploit for life to exist and survive.


:lol: :lol: Why do you think I'm talking about mortality and immortality? Perhaps we have found a menial, small-minded point upon which we agree: immortality is utterly absurd and it does not exist and it is impossible for organic machines such as ourselves. :D
Well said.

User avatar
Summerlander
Posts: 4196
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 20 Nov 2014 15:18

buildit wrote:Universal constant accurate to something like 10 X-11 decimal places (6.673×10−11), Goldilocks planet the right distance from sun which is just big enough not to cook us, where life just "happens" and then becomes sentient! If I was a gambling man those odds make the Power Ball look like a sure win. :roll:


This argument is invalid and I think you are well aware of how many times I have refuted it. For those who want a proper explanation as to why this does not prove intelligent design, just check out Lawrence Krauss: A Universe From Nothing - this is a real scientist who talks about the universal constants! :D

The anthropic principle here applies...(Yoda impression) :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

User avatar
deschainXIX
Posts: 890
Joined: 07 Aug 2013 18:18
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby deschainXIX » 20 Nov 2014 18:53

Maybe there is an inherent biological morality to the universe: If there was a sentient species that didn't hold the values of the golden rule and empathy close at heart, it wouldn't make it very far into the complexities of civilization and progression. It's not morality, it's just a consequence of reality.
Well said.

User avatar
buildit
Posts: 482
Joined: 23 Sep 2014 04:14
Location: USA

Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby buildit » 20 Nov 2014 22:37

Summerlander wrote:
buildit wrote:Universal constant accurate to something like 10 X-11 decimal places (6.673×10−11), Goldilocks planet the right distance from sun which is just big enough not to cook us, where life just "happens" and then becomes sentient! If I was a gambling man those odds make the Power Ball look like a sure win. :roll:


This argument is invalid and I think you are well aware of how many times I have refuted it. For those who want a proper explanation as to why this does not prove intelligent design, just check out Lawrence Krauss: A Universe From Nothing - this is a real scientist who talks about the universal constants! :D

The anthropic principle here applies...(Yoda impression) :mrgreen:

Well, we will not see eye to eye on the ability of science to neither anthropomorphize the universe nor randomize it to chaos. From my point of view if you are correct then we might as well blow up the earth and destroy all life. Without a purpose we are little more than an intelligent disease. :?
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

User avatar
Summerlander
Posts: 4196
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 21 Nov 2014 02:17

You have a solipsistic, egocentric way of thinking (like a great portion of mankind). You believe the universe was created with you in mind. (Never mind the billions of rogue planets out there that will never bear life, never mind those worlds that will never get past the microbial stage, never the ones that only bear plant-like or animal-like life before they are pulverised in cosmic catastrophes, never mind the rare ones that hold intelligence... what is the meaning of that?)

Cosmically speaking, and this is plain to see, we are insignificant. Life has no meaning at all. If you want meaning in your life, you have to invent it. To do this, you may want to conduct yourself based on your likes and dislikes. You may devote your life to making your loved ones happy. You may live by wallowing in war with your enemies. You may dedicate your life to finding scientific answers. It all boils down to purpose. To find purpose you must answer the following question to yourself because nobody else can do it for you: What do I do next?

There is no celestial father guiding you. No Almighty with divine plans for you. If you insist on this conviction, you are yet to convince me. The universe, you pointed out, happens to have the right cosmological equilibrium that permits the emergence of life and you hold this to be enough proof of intelligent design. But the fact of the matter is, from the Big Bang, the cosmic billiards could still have stumbled upon the present conditions by chance, without the aid of a god or deity. (And if you tell me it couldn't possibly happen without a higher power, you are not a real scientist.) People win the lottery but this doesn't not mean that they were chosen. The numbers they picked just happened to be right. Furthermore, despite permitting the existence of life and consciousness, the universe is mostly too hostile and chaotic for humans and other species. Even our home planet isn't exactly hospitable with all its natural catastrophes and dangerous predators. A particular type of extremophile is known to remarkably endure the conditions of space for some time but that is about it.

So consider your argument refuted for the third time. Finally, just because there is no God with a plan for you, and just because life has no real meaning, doesn't mean that we should just blow up the planet. On the contrary! We were born in an alien world full of wonderful things yet to be discovered. And we have also grown attached to things. Enjoy life and make the most of it because at least it's something. It's not all doom and gloom for many of us. We should feel privileged that we can experience a variety of things. Lucid dreaming is great! What about sex! That's reason enough to not want to kill yourself or die just yet. There you go. All the wonderful things that surround me, and my own mind, mean a lot to me. That's my meaning. :-D

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

User avatar
deschainXIX
Posts: 890
Joined: 07 Aug 2013 18:18
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby deschainXIX » 21 Nov 2014 12:49

I absolutely agree with everything Summerlander said. Excellently written. I was typing up a similar response when he posted: we make our own personal meaning. Don't look at the infinite sky, keep your eyes on the ground and maybe you won't go insane.

Maybe purpose is a preconceived notion. Maybe people would never get anxious/depressed or have existential meltdowns if they hadn't been told all their life that there is such a thing AS purpose. How much more healthy would a child/individual be if from childhood they were told that "purpose and meaning" are fallacies and the universe is a machine functioning on a few basic physical principles and little more? It's hard to say; at our current state, everyone grows up surrounded by popular social philosophy: ideas like destiny and soul mates and religion.

When people spend their entire lives operating under such painful delusions as, "Everything happens for a reason," they are bound for nothing but disappointment and misery and confusion. When terrible things happen (as they are bound to do) and life does not pan out the way they had intended or hoped for (as it is CERTAIN to do), this person will be flung into such manic questioning of why the universe decided to do this. How many times have we heard, "Why me?" But when a person realizes and accepts the truth of reality, he/she is far better equipped to lead a happy, productive life.

Every time I'm speaking with someone who is suffering, they always say the same thing. They always ask for a reason it is happening, and they resort to theologizing the motives and actions of some great magnanimous God. What they really need is a total shift in perspective to something more realistic.

[ Post made via iPhone ] Image
Well said.

User avatar
Summerlander
Posts: 4196
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 22 Nov 2014 02:43

Nobody said religion is the sole cause of depression. But it can certainly be a contributor. Depressed people kill themselves because they have stumbled upon a defeatist and self-destructive state of mind. They don't see any purpose to their existence in a negative way.

What deschainXIX is talking about is something slightly, if not completely, different. What if individuals don't have the pressure to become someone? What if their goals are not all there is, in their minds, and they can be at peace when unsuccessful. I think there is definitely a bliss to be attained if one stops looking at the world based on likes and dislikes. Likes and dislikes certainly get in the way of happiness. Eventually you lose everything so it is always best to avoid becoming too attached to your possessions. There is truth in the old Buddhist aphorism: Desire is the source of suffering.

Christopher Hitchens died of esophageal cancer. During the writing of his last book "Mortality," just before he passed away, he was asked if he ever questioned, "Why me?" He replied: "Why not me? I'm just another statistic..."

On his deathbed he also mentioned that the religious proposition seemed more absurd than ever before... :-D

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

User avatar
Peter
Posts: 1936
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Peter » 22 Nov 2014 06:17

In simple words tell most of the world to F Off and live on your own terms, not easy but worth the effort

the more I look at society the more I dont really want to be part of it, local values appear to be fine but global issues or big country agendas are a bit screwed up
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

User avatar
Summerlander
Posts: 4196
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby Summerlander » 24 Nov 2014 01:35

"...the absence of representation is not the same as the representation of absence. And the representation of presence is not the same as the presence of representation. But this is hard to believe. Our conviction that we are somehow directly acquainted with special properties or features in our experience is one of the most powerful intuitions confronting anyone trying to develop a good theory of consciousness. I've been chipping at it, trying to undermine its authority, but there's still more work to be done."

- Daniel Dennett

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

User avatar
buildit
Posts: 482
Joined: 23 Sep 2014 04:14
Location: USA

Re: Does the Soul Exist?

Postby buildit » 24 Nov 2014 15:49

Summerlander wrote:"...the absence of representation is not the same as the representation of absence. And the representation of presence is not the same as the presence of representation. But this is hard to believe. Our conviction that we are somehow directly acquainted with special properties or features in our experience is one of the most powerful intuitions confronting anyone trying to develop a good theory of consciousness. I've been chipping at it, trying to undermine its authority, but there's still more work to be done."

- Daniel Dennett

[ Post made via Android ] Image



So you admit I'm right then? :lol:
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?


Return to “Off-Topic”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests