Lucid Dreaming and Religion

For all other chat which isn't directly related to lucid dreaming and the world of sleep and dreams.
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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby Summerlander » 14 Dec 2017 22:21

Brain freeze too. 8-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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RedKryptonite
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby RedKryptonite » 03 Jan 2018 07:17

DreamerMan99 wrote:Oblivion would be better than rebirth in a realm where you have everything forever. How many years in a world with everything would pass before you've done it all and are completely miserable? What does love mean when that person can be around you for not hundreds, not thousands, but infinite amount of years? The idea of Heaven has always seemed more like Hell to me.

Even Hell. How many years of torture and pain do you need before the ego completely dissociates from the mind and you simply become nothing.

I remember in a videogame I once played, Skyrim, there was this plane of existence where souls were banished for an eternity. They would be there so long that they'd become mad hollows and eventually just no longer have any recollection of what they were, what was important to them, where they were.

Honestly,the only kind of "heaven" that I can imagine would be possible without eventual boredom is the kind where you're given an "Infinite High"
Imagine the most pleasurable drug possible(if you're a recreational drug user,think of your favorite drug)and its high/pleasurable effects last for an eternity. I don't think its actually possible to get bored of such a sensation. :twisted:

Still,just like how an eternity of torture and pain would eventually obliterate your mind/ego,an infinite sensation of maximum pleasure would probably result in the same thing.

Though one results in you probably becoming a mad hollow,the other results in you just laying limp on the ground savoring the mindless pleasure. at least,that's what I can theorize. hehe :lol:

I wonder what would be better,oblivion or eternal mindless pleasure? I'd certainly like to hear your opinions. :geek:

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby Summerlander » 08 Jan 2018 14:33

We should remind ourselves of the dangers posed by organised religion and how, when it comes to political Islam, we should not cower under the veil of multiculturalism and bury our heads in the abject, dirty creed that religion is beyond criticism and the tenets of any faith must be respected.

I think Freud was right in the respect that people tend to believe in the beyond because they fear death. This reality---according to many who don't know enough about it and feel it's not enough---can't be all there is. I suspect this ubiquitous way of thinking comes from humankind's infancy, when fear of the unknown was most prominent and we needed consoling narratives even if these were false and unfounded. We struggled to make sense of the hostile world around us (volcanos, earthquakes, animal predators, disease)--a terrifying reality that we gradually woke up to as human consciousness gradually emerged--and any 'explanation' would do ... any label.

One of the aftermath symptoms of this trauma--passed on genetically as well as memetically--is superstition, the real source of religion which, later, would be used to corrupt and subdue much of mankind. Religiosity could be viewed as a psychological disease which promotes misology and impairs reasoning; so perhaps the world needs more subtle or clandestine therapists like Peter Boghossian to steer them towards reason, leading the pious to open themselves to physicalism and atheism, which, sorry to break it to those good people who love the lord, is the only reasonable position to hold.

Perhaps even the secular are partial to the aforementioned trauma. I come from a Catholic background but something happened when I was a child which made me question my inherited belief. It made me go from questioning God's motives to agnosticism, and later, as my inquisitive mind demanded that I search for substantial answers (when science began to resonate with me), atheism.

I remember questioning God's motives as a child, His silence, and specifically His absence when He should have acted. I was enrolled in a school run by strict nuns and witnessed two of them tell a young boy his parents must make arrangements for his baptism or he would go to hell. Subsequently they left the boy to his pensive sadness and, eventually, the taunting clamour from other children that he'd burn in hell triggered a lachrymose episode which had a profound impact on me as I observed the scene.

I remember wondering why the other kids didn't seem to experience the empathy I felt for someone in that terrible predicament. I imagined myself having been denied access to heaven as things currently stood--rejected by the 'good side'. Then I wondered why God had not intervened. Even as a child myself I could see that it wasn't the boy's fault. Surely the perfectly good and all-knowing God could see this and make an exception?

As I grew older, doubt began to kick in, especially when I heard some adults expressing their disbelief in God, which used to upset my church-going mother. 'Adults are not sure about God's existence?' I thought. And it began to dawn on me that they had a point that seemed to make sense given God's silence. (Of course, my mother used to tell me that God stopped talking to people like in Biblical times because, despite caring about us, He was deeply dismayed with mankind.) I suppose I stumbled upon a better epistemology and philosophising on the matter further begged questions such as why God would create us sinful and then censure us in order to fulfil His brand of 'justice'.

I don't recall an 'Aha!' moment when I suddenly realised that there is no God. (But I have noticed that I am happier now with the fact that I no longer believe there is a Big Boss watching me 24/7 and feel free to be curious about the world and search for rational explanations without somebody ruining it by saying, 'God made it!')

Some people remember a precise moment when they became atheists--or perhaps a realisation that one is really an atheist if one is going to be honest with oneself! Such is the case of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, an author from Somalia who escaped the murderous clutches of Islam having committed apostasy. In an essay she wrote for The Portable Atheist by Christopher Hitchens, she describes the moment which is akin to the emergence of lucidity in a dream:

'I was an atheist. An apostate. An infidel. I looked in a mirror and said out loud, in Somali, "I don't believe in God." I felt relief. There was no pain but a real clarity. The long process of seeing the flaws in my belief structure, and carefully tip-toeing around the frayed edges as parts of it were torn out piece by piece--all that was over. The ever-present prospect of Hellfire lifted, and my horizon seemed broader. God, Satan, angels: these were all figments of human imagination, mechanisms to impose the will of the powerful on the weak. From now on I could step firmly on the ground that was under my feet and navigate based on my own reason and self-respect. My moral compass was within myself, not in the pages of a sacred book.'
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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RedKryptonite
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby RedKryptonite » 08 Jan 2018 18:29

Summerlander wrote:Perhaps even the secular are partial to the aforementioned trauma. I come from a Catholic background but something happened when I was a child which made me question my inherited belief. It made me go from questioning God's motives to agnosticism, and later, as my inquisitive mind demanded that I search for substantial answers (when science began to resonate with me), atheism.

I remember questioning God's motives as a child, His silence, and specifically His absence when He should have acted. I was enrolled in a school run by strict nuns and witnessed two of them tell a young boy his parents must make arrangements for his baptism or he would go to hell. Subsequently they left the boy to his pensive sadness and, eventually, the taunting clamour from other children that he'd burn in hell triggered a lachrymose episode which had a profound impact on me as I observed the scene.

I remember wondering why the other kids didn't seem to experience the empathy I felt for someone in that terrible predicament. I imagined myself having been denied access to heaven as things currently stood--rejected by the 'good side'. Then I wondered why God had not intervened. Even as a child myself I could see that it wasn't the boy's fault. Surely the perfectly good and all-knowing God could see this and make an exception?

As I grew older, doubt began to kick in, especially when I heard some adults expressing their disbelief in God, which used to upset my church-going mother. 'Adults are not sure about God's existence?' I thought. And it began to dawn on me that they had a point that seemed to make sense given God's silence. (Of course, my mother used to tell me that God stopped talking to people like in Biblical times because, despite caring about us, He was deeply dismayed with mankind.) I suppose I stumbled upon a better epistemology and philosophising on the matter further begged questions such as why God would create us sinful and then censure us in order to fulfil His brand of 'justice'.

I don't recall an 'Aha!' moment when I suddenly realised that there is no God. (But I have noticed that I am happier now with the fact that I no longer believe there is a Big Boss watching me 24/7 and feel free to be curious about the world and search for rational explanations without somebody ruining it by saying, 'God made it!')

Some people remember a precise moment when they became atheists--or perhaps a realisation that one is really an atheist if one is going to be honest with oneself! Such is the case of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, an author from Somalia who escaped the murderous clutches of Islam having committed apostasy. In an essay she wrote for The Portable Atheist by Christopher Hitchens, she describes the moment which is akin to the emergence of lucidity in a dream:

'I was an atheist. An apostate. An infidel. I looked in a mirror and said out loud, in Somali, "I don't believe in God." I felt relief. There was no pain but a real clarity. The long process of seeing the flaws in my belief structure, and carefully tip-toeing around the frayed edges as parts of it were torn out piece by piece--all that was over. The ever-present prospect of Hellfire lifted, and my horizon seemed broader. God, Satan, angels: these were all figments of human imagination, mechanisms to impose the will of the powerful on the weak. From now on I could step firmly on the ground that was under my feet and navigate based on my own reason and self-respect. My moral compass was within myself, not in the pages of a sacred book.'

I've put this off for too long,but I may as well discuss my journey to Atheism as well.

I am an Ex-Catholic/Christian. What started me on the path to questioning my religion is my traumatic childhood experience with bullies. I was never what you'd call a "normal kid." I was socially awkward,fat,mentally unstable,introverted and a total computer/video game geek. I was big and strong enough to defend myself,but I was always taught by my teachers and religious authorities that violence was always wrong no matter what,and because of that,I refused to fight back. Believe it or not,I actually used to be a very good follower of our religion. I didn't just believe because of the comfortable mumbo jumbo,I actually followed it and tried not to sin as best as I can. Needless to say,this made me a very attractive target for bullies. I remember every night I would pray and beg God/Jesus to save me from my tormentors. I was literally crying and begging him to save me every night. I restrained myself from violent retaliation because I genuinely believed that it was wrong and that asking God for help is the right thing...but that help never came. :(
If only I knew back then what I know now,I would have smashed the first bully who came at me. Politically correct society refuses to accept this,but harsh life experience has taught me that there are only really 2 effective ways to prevent/stop bullying:
1) Not being interesting enough to be targeted in the first place or
2) Being too expensive to victimize
http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/2012/12/bullying-as-human-behavior.html

Unfortunately,I was unlucky in both genetics(uncontrollable strange mannerisms)and environment/upbringing(my parents were too poor and ignorant to put me in a specialized institution at the time.) and so the only available option to me is #2. however,as I've said before,the whole "violence is never the answer" bullshit was ingrained into me by religion and the school.

One day,I snapped however. to tell you the truth,I cannot remember most of my childhood(probably a good thing. they say your mind will sometimes block out memories that are too traumatic to protect the person) including the first few fights I got into in school. I do however,remember deeply wounding a classmate with my long nails. I also started being really aggressive and ready to go at it,I would often yell/scream at whoever tries to bully me. I stopped praying entirely and acted rebelliously towards our religion. "if God refuses to help me,he can go fuck himself! I'm gonna sin and beat the hell out of anyone who tries to mess with me!"

In addition to this,I started participating in heated religious debates on youtube and sided with Atheists. I actually didn't really believe the Atheists at first and was only doing it to release my pent up rage and give God the finger. Oh man,I really pounded on a ton of blindly religious people there. Felt great,I have no idea if I've actually successfully converted anyone there(if they did,they never came back to admit it. they just went silent)but it doesn't matter,it was an awesome way to release steam. :twisted:

Eventually however...I started calming down,and slowly but surely I became convinced of all the logical arguments by the Atheists and their dissection of the bible's inconsistencies. Before I knew it,I wasn't "angry at God" anymore,I instead fully and truly didn't believe in it anymore. being angry at God is about as silly as being angry at Santa Claus for not giving me my presents during x-mas :lol:

I do however,remember 1 specific event that once and for all shattered any remaining faith I had in that religion. It was the concept of the lord's supposed "omniscience" and hell. If this God was really omniscient(knows everything including all future events)then he knows from the day you're born...nay,long before any of us even came into existence,where our future will end up. In essence,those who were destined for hell were already doomed to begin with. wow,some "all-loving father" we have here. :roll:

That realization pretty much shattered any remaining belief I had in Christianity,and pushed me into Deism. The reason I became a Deist back then rather than become a full-blown Atheist is because it was my only answer to the secret of the universe and for the sometimes "seemingly supernatural" things that happen around us. I was under the impression that a powerful being indeed created the universe,but then decides not to interact with us except for the occasional supernatural/inexplicable moments.

My first Atheist friend was on youtube. a guy by the name of "THEREIZNOGOD." He's not on youtube anymore and we've both gone our separate ways,but thankfully his account is still up and here are 2 of his short but classic videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31ElTOh9Eec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEJiX4j4a5g

Goddamn youtube,if only they didn't delete the old PM box. we had such great conversations. Back then,I was just a naive little kid and I presented my Deism to him. I remember him telling me that the problem with this belief is it is based on the idea that there has to be something more than we can see,but the problem is that if we can't see/know something,we can't talk about it either. we can't just go jumping to imaginary conclusions because it makes us comfortable. We have to be comfortable with accepting that there are things about life we simply don't know yet,and we may very well never truly know until our death.

While I definitely understood his argument,I didn't take it to heart until much later on. I eventually went from Deist to Atheist. I cannot reveal this publicly because I live in a religious neighborhood but my parents and sister are very much aware. Thankfully the internet is here to freely discuss this matter without fear of social backlash.

I doubt there is an afterlife or an intelligent ultimate being who created us all...but if there is,its very much doubtful that any of the man-made religions are correct. Deism I would say is much more likely than any organized religion.

There you go,that's my story. I went from actively hating Christianity,to completely disbelieving in it. I might have more to say,and will probably say it later,but here's what's on my mind for now.

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby Summerlander » 15 Jan 2018 10:17

Religion isn't just for weak minds. It strives to keep all minds weak for submission and exploitation. Even those minds with the potential courage of free thought. It leaves everyone vulnerable. It takes your right to defend yourself. You are deemed unworthy and in need of salvation. It makes you think life is some kind of test. Religion, at its worst, destroys lives every day. :geek:

Science is the best method we have with which to study reality. It is about inquiry, not dogmas and belief. Scientists are often the humblest people you will meet as they are honest enough to say, about certain characteristics of reality, 'We don't know, we don't have an answer yet, but we are working towards a solution using experimentation and observation.' You will find that pious zealots and spiritualists are quite the opposite as they say, 'We know this to be the case, we are certain of this, our instinct is strong and tells us that this is real...' and go on attempting, very badly and clumsily, to make scientific discovery fit their beloved worldviews. It is no different to the religious zealot changing his exegesis in order to make it compatible with the newfound knowledge that science has provided, so, he might say, 'I know the good book says the earth does not move and is the centre of the universe but it is not to be taken literally, you see...'

This is very suspect, and, if not deliberately knavish, it is a statement that might reinforce delusion out of desperation. The comfortable 'belief' is under threat. Deepak will not recant his position like a scientist would. Scientists follow evidence while men like Deepak prefer to hold on to fantasies and delusions. Deepak is not a quantum physicist, yet he appears to claim to know more about that level of reality than the expert, and attempts to convince the layman to join him with his garbled mumbo-jumbo that centres around metaphor. Religion in general is the same. There is nothing in the Bible about DNA, genes, viruses and germs that can make people ill. Instead, you find the ramblings of superstitious Iron Age peasants. Even the so-called moral values in the Bible are inferior compared to what today's secular humanism can propose. The Bible is hardly practical and you will find more use in a book with a few cooking recipes.

Nothing in the brain has been identified as the essence of consciousness. For all we know, it is a strong illusion like the wetness of water (nothing about water molecules, let alone its atoms, is 'wet'). Note that illusion does not equate with non-existent. It just means that it is not what it seems. I'd also like to point out that, when someone makes tall claims in scientific circles, the onus is on them to prove what they claim---not the other way around! The same principle applies in our courts: If you say that princess Diana was assassinated by prince Philip, the onus is on you to supply evidence to the jury to back up your claim. You cannot just make the claim without any evidence and tell the opposition, 'Disprove what I've just said.' This would not make sense and it could not be done in the first place. Even if Philip provided an alibi, it could be surmised that he conspired with others and put hitmen to it. If he sworn by the Bible or provided an affidavit, he could be accused of lying. You see how speculation has no power and should not be given any power when establishing facts? On science and spirituality... The first deals with facts and tries to uncover the truth about reality. The second is older and is deeply ingrained in our being. Its source is fear. We can trace it back to the times when our ancestors knew squat and were afraid of the future. In those times, we thought that invisible agents were at work. What we could not explain needed a quick explanation so we came up with gods, demons, and all sorts of superstitions. It was comforting to live under the delusion that we knew what was causing the unexplained and 'knew' what to do when we took the solar eclipse to be a divine sign and sacrificed animals and human life in order to appease wrathful gods. Such actions gave us hope and then we moved on to faith. And after praying, when things didn't go as planned, we assigned mystery to our maker's mind. He is beyond our understanding therefore there must be a good reason for the misery that has befallen us... (what a terrible way to live!)

Religion was even better as it provided control and gave us a sense of purpose (not to mention the fancy idea that the creator had us in mind when He created everything---a highly egocentric proposal). Religion was our first attempt at everything. It was our early 'philosophy' and our early 'science'. But now it's dying as real science continues to uncover material that discredits fantasy and provides what is actually practical for our survival. Thus, astronomy replaces astrology, chemistry replaces alchemy, and physics shows us that a universe could in fact have arisen without the need of a supernatural creator. Hence, religion, like the moth's biological compass, becomes a misfiring by-product of an otherwise useful thing.

I will not mention spirituality, because, (and note the words I use) one can still be spiritual without subscribing to spiritualism (which to me is a form of religion), but, the reason why science and religion don't get along is due to the fact that they are complete opposites. One works for reason and truth. The other does not.

Religion is becoming an increasingly dangerous concept because it stultifies our intellectual growth. Religion often alludes that the search for knowledge is a thing of the devil. Religion persuades you to give up the quest for knowledge and to accept its tenets, calling them the 'unquestionable truth', to have faith and accept its teachings without evidence. Religion also fancies some eschatological ideas that attracts certain individuals to commit atrocities in the belief that they are doing God's work. Religion makes good people be unreasonable and act bad. Religion degrades the human spirit by treating it like a child that can't tell right from wrong. Religion hijacks our nobility by telling us to behave or else ... (no heaven, hell for sure). Religion can even convince some that the victims of some catastrophe somehow deserved it. It defies science, reason and morality.

So shame on people like Deepak Chopra, John Hagelin, Duncan MacDougall, Rupert Sheldrake, Amit Goswami, Thomas Campbell (cult leader!) and many other pseudoscientific crackpots out there... :D
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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RedKryptonite
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby RedKryptonite » 15 Jan 2018 16:37

Summerlander wrote:Religion isn't just for weak minds. It strives to keep all minds weak for submission and exploitation. Even those minds with the potential courage of free thought. It leaves everyone vulnerable. It takes your right to defend yourself. You are deemed unworthy and in need of salvation. It makes you think life is some kind of test. Religion, at its worst, destroys lives every day. :geek:

So true,nothing more I can add. Other than this lovely documentary. Witness the destructive capability of the most powerful mental disease on this planet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEOX8aT_uSQ

And to think,all this suffering could have been avoided with something as simple as the use of birth control/contraceptives...but no,the catholic church is against it. :roll:

The average Filipino is a fucking sheep,but I suppose that isn't really their fault when they are brainwashed by their parents at an early age to believe in this abomination called christianity/catholicism. I'm just one of the lucky few who were able to see through the deception.

The majority of religious people out there will have to experience a very traumatic event,an event so traumatic that it causes them to question their existence and beliefs,for them to have any hope of finally seeing through the BS. You and I experienced this at a young age(you for for witnessing the disgusting cruelty of these "religious children",and me for being the victim of these monsters.). and to think,had you and I never had lived differently,we may very well have ended up just like those sheep. I guess sometimes pain can be a good thing.

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby Summerlander » 16 Jan 2018 10:26

Yes. The indoctrination of hogwash. No appeal against its tenets and no debate about ethics because the Creator says the rules are final. Disgustingly pro-life and pronatalist.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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LoneDreamer
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby LoneDreamer » 08 Feb 2018 15:48

Not to be that guy, but I am just saying, didn't all progressive civilizations have religion and culture. Even in religious civilization there was a separate place for studying nature and science (kind of). So, can't religion coexist with the current society to some extent? Also, I don't think atheism can withstand repeated onslaught by organised and dogmatic alpha religions such as islam. It seems way too strong to resist unless opposed with the same dogma. Most people will rather follow their own mind and prejudices than act on what's true. Thus follow collective belief and do actions based on it thus i feel that religion will exist one way or another. Ones who can see through all the illusion of belief can lead the masses to progress or they can use the mobs collective thinking to his own benefit. There are many examples for both cases in history. I feel that this mob mentality is prevalent in humans and will always be present. This is what I think. 8-) What is your opinion?

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LoneDreamer
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby LoneDreamer » 08 Feb 2018 16:03

RedKryptonite wrote: What started me on the path to questioning my religion is my traumatic childhood experience with bullies. I was never what you'd call a "normal kid." I was socially awkward,fat,mentally unstable,introverted and a total computer/video game geek.

That seems to sums up most of my teenage years. Though I must say I didn't have experience as harsh as yours, I was not always bullied but either way, I always felt left out.
Although I must say I didn't have any bad experience regarding religion, but yes I also was pretty anti god and always blamed god for my bad luck. I have many times insulted god as well. :lol: But I must say compared what you guys have said I must say religious folks around me are pretty great people. I don't know too much about Indian Christians but I feel that they are more dogmatic than the Hindus. Also, why are people around so concerned about you being atheists? People around would either make fun of me or think of me as some modern hippie or think I am trying to look cool(this is true in some cases though), other than that no one cares about it.

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RedKryptonite
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby RedKryptonite » 09 Feb 2018 08:30

LoneDreamer wrote:why are people around so concerned about you being atheists? People around would either make fun of me or think of me as some modern hippie or think I am trying to look cool(this is true in some cases though), other than that no one cares about it.

This video by DarkMatter2525 should sufficiently answer your question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8ZMMuu7MU
(don't worry,its not some typical boring video of a guy talking/ranting in front of a screen. its an short but entertaining animated video.)

The guy has many other animated videos as well,3 of my favorites:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r6oXukz_Cc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODetOE6cbbc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMaK6k4oZ20

:lol: ah...such classics.

Anyway,nice to see you back. :D


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