Difference between astral projection and lucid dreaming?

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DesertExplorer
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Re: Difference between astral projection and lucid dreaming?

Postby DesertExplorer » 25 Jan 2015 02:36

What you are saying about the breathing sounds frightening, nesgirl. :|
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Summerlander
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Re: Difference between astral projection and lucid dreaming?

Postby Summerlander » 26 Jan 2015 02:53

As Peter pointed out, FAs are typically characterised by the dreamer's ignorance besides realism of experience. What I was previously referring to is a different kettle of fish which, for the sake of being precise, I almost feel compelled to refer to them as pre-lucid dreams which quickly develop full-fledged lucidity.

In these pre-lucids (if we recall that by "lucid" we mean "knowing" that one is dreaming), the dreamer gets out of bed hoping that the surroundings represent the dream world. The dreamer remembers his/her intention to re-enter the dream world with waking consciousness. The dreamer possesses the suspicion of a detective which lacks in typical FAs (and if suspicion or a certain realisation feature in these, they tend to emerge late and often lead to awakenings).

In my induced pre-lucids, however, the dreamer is an oneironaut (already exploring). The oneironaut is not exactly being deceived by his perception if he wants to determine whether or not his re-entry into the dream world was successful. He is already "awake" in the dream world, and, once he makes his confirmation (using techniques such as the ones nesgirl mentioned) that it is indeed a dream, this certainty is what defines him as LUCID.

I apologise if I wasn't clear before or if I misled you in any way, DesertExplorer.

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taniaaust1
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Re: Difference between astral projection and lucid dreaming?

Postby taniaaust1 » 26 Jan 2015 12:04

Peter wrote:
@peter are you saying you can AP and LD... If that is the case (and your not lumping them together as one) then that is pretty cool and i'd like to know more... I have only been able to AP once...i would love to do it again!


That is my problem with definitions, I have two points of exit that invlove unbroken awareness Ie; watching myself going to sleep.

in the first instance I will do what I do, relax in certain ways and observe and I will get to the state of directly entering a lucid dream. This is into a place or time that is random although if I want to imagining the sensation of speed or moving into a tunnel will have me on a bike or car or running like mad and directly into the dream

The second is similar except that I will not enter a dream but I will rise, slip, slide of simply get up and walk away and I will walk around my house or across my room and outside. If I choose I will fly around my section and look about until I ask for a new place or take off and see where I go.

IF these body exits to my room are an astral projection then about half of 15 + events a month are astral projections.
I cant pick the difference in the two apart from one is directly into the dream and one will have me standing in my room looking at my sleeping body if I choose to look at it/me

Seriously a few thousand of these mixed events over a lot of years.

Keen to be corrected because if there is an experience that I have not had I will soon fix that if I can


You may be dreaming you are having astral projections, its hard for another to tell without certain other common things which often happen in LD without the person being aware of them which makes an experience more likely an OBE.

I find astral projections feel very slightly different but the difference if one has very vivid LDs in which one has full awareness and normal brain thinking in can be very slight and hard to tell ..but there is a subtle difference. (its impossible for me to describe it, it can be hard for me to pick up on at times).

I cant just go from one to the other eg if I tried to right now, I'd probably just LD I was having an OBE rather then actually astral projecting.. as what we think we create in our LDs.

It is possible to LD one is raising out of ones body and floating above it.

The only way for someone to know for sure if one isnt just dreaming if one cant tell the difference between an OBE and a LD (one cant go by just floating out of body! or appearing in their bedroom if one has been just thinking of this kind of thing hence likely to create a dream of that) , is to go and prove something wasnt just a dream, so by checking out things to find out if they were only dream creations or not.

Ask yourself how do you know you arent having LDs of having OBEs? I suggest to try to prove to yourself if there is reality behind the experience or not eg if you go for a astral walk down your street, check out all your neighbours cars and exactly where they are parked.. who's home and who isnt..

strange cars present? try to get number plate if so.. then bring yourself out of it and go for a physical walk and see if what you saw was true. (anything which dont fit eg strange car write it down just in case you saw something in the future instead of current, it may made sense later. You may of seen the car the neighbour will buy next week).

Aim to be seeing the NOW moment (this will help the astral focus as otherwise the past or the future can confuse the result. Like remote viewing, astral projection can be targeted by what you think so can be made more precise in a time sense).

Im not going to say you cant be having OBEs but I know for myself, I cant go from one to another or I start dreaming Im having OBEs instead of dreaming them. One needs ot be able to aim for a certain state to get into one or the other as the states are so close to each other that I find it too hard to be able to be doing both.. I have to choose long term to be working on one or another .. maybe thou there are some who can swap between and not just go dreaming about having OBEs.

I hope sooner or later everyone has a clear OBE in which they are able to prove to oneself that it couldnt have been a LD.
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Summerlander
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Re: Difference between astral projection and lucid dreaming?

Postby Summerlander » 26 Jan 2015 13:28

I agree with testing things out for sure. If one is convinced that they are having a real OOBE, by all means try to do what Monroe claims to have done.

I have also had dreams that duped me into thinking that "astral projection is real after all" which were quicklu followed by false awakenings where my abode was infested with poltergeists and my wife accusing me of having opened a Pandora's box. Then I wake up and I'm back to my sceptical self. Those were definitely just dreams and false awakenings... not lucid dreaming.

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- Padmasambhava

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Peter
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Re: Difference between astral projection and lucid dreaming?

Postby Peter » 26 Jan 2015 16:30

with the proof being able to find some evidence that is solid in the posts I have read over the last 5 years I dont know of anyone that has been able to gain solid evidence that they are really walking around the real world in the OBE state.
hundreds try and get close but always its just not quite right
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Summerlander
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Re: Difference between astral projection and lucid dreaming?

Postby Summerlander » 26 Jan 2015 21:37

I've noticed that, too, Peter. I tried it myself and couldn't get anything solid either. In Astral Viewers we had Bedeekin who claimed to be able to do it. What he termed "1st phase OOBE" was equivalent to Monroe's Locale I; "2nd phase OOBE" was Locale II. I invited him to 'visit' me and prove it. He never did. Even more bizarre was his claim that he could alter physical reality via the metaphysical realm. This was right before that website's demise... :-)

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Summerlander
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Re: Difference between astral projection and lucid dreaming?

Postby Summerlander » 27 Jan 2015 01:31

I disagree with your suggestion that science should stay out of the realm of lucid dreaming, nesgirl.

Some valuable data can be gleaned from lucid dreams which potentially expand our understanding and help us to formulate new theoretical models in fields such as neuroscience, psychology, humanistics and oneirology.

Lucid dreaming has already been established as a hybrid phase state which compounds dreaming and wakefulness in a peculiar way and certain brain regions are observed to be unusually active in consensual sleeping subjects. Never say, "Don't go there."

Enquiring about lucid dreaming and meticulously researching everything at play here may yield new and more effective therapies and even possibly provide the key to the mystery of consciousness - and the current inchoate picture we have of this puzzling phenomenon should not discourage our research either.

Here is a little fact for you: If someone like you had dissuaded physicists in the '30s from delving into quantum mechanics, you would not be sharing your ideas online today.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Peter
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Re: Difference between astral projection and lucid dreaming?

Postby Peter » 27 Jan 2015 05:34

how do you know that in your dreams right now that you are not being manipulated and forced into being happy by another
How do you know that the thoughts you think are yours
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Peter
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Re: Difference between astral projection and lucid dreaming?

Postby Peter » 27 Jan 2015 09:03

I am usually the one who controls the Lucid Dreams, and always will


We control elements of the dream only and thats enough to make it interesting but a lot of the time I will walk through a wall and ask for a surprise on the other side so am I controlling that and if not what is.

I suspect and have said this a lot that there are a few aspects to us and at times one of the other is a little more dominant. Science may pin this to brain wave states and thats fine but does not provide an answer.

Where I am going is that no matter what aspects are not controllable and they are where the new adventures come into it

As for the government I doubt they would ever want to look at our minds but if they could would seek to control each others leaders. Lol - that would really balance out and we would be the same but have a Chinese Obama, an American Russian and a Chinese I dont know

Imagine the fun we could have pouring info into govt databases
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Summerlander
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Re: Difference between astral projection and lucid dreaming?

Postby Summerlander » 27 Jan 2015 18:00

When it comes to research on lucid dreaming, scientists manage to find subjects who are willing to have their brains scanned and stimulated while they sleep, nesgirl. So even if you don't agree with this type of study, there are many who do.

And even if this research leads to the ability to fully "read" people's minds at some point in the future, nobody can look into yours without your consent - unless, of course, you commit a felony that makes you lose that right. You can always vote for a politican who promises to ratify a decree guaranteeing the right to mental privacy for civillians and only what is consented will be divulged.

I also want to point out that secret government agencies may have to hack minds in order to nab dangerous international foes. This would be top secret and I doubt that they would be interested in insignificant quirks that you may want to hide. Anyway, this is another topic which has its own ongoing debate.

Now, Peter...

What kind of answers do you expect from science about certain mental phenomena other than concomitant brain waves or synaptic activity? What else could we expect other than the electrochemical excitations that we observe?

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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