Crazy Idea

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kel21139
Posts: 5
Joined: 20 Oct 2014 17:37

Crazy Idea

Postby kel21139 » 20 Oct 2014 17:56

I know that dreams are supposed to be our subconscious thoughts randomly rolling around or some other logical explanation of the like. Yet, I've always felt like there was more to it than that. Possibly our subconscious tapping into another dimension or another plane of reality, or maybe we are truly awake when we are in a dream and our perception of what dreaming should be is actually backwards. I have barely, if ever had a lucid dream but I have had dreams that feel so real it does have me question the validity of our reality. Some dreams are so intense that I feel like I'm truly alive while sleeping. My emotions are so ecstasy filled as if I could love, or fear, or have passion a hundred times greater than in when I am awake. It's like having the most perfect moment, the most perfect love, and the most perfect place in your grasp, only to be whisked away as you realize it was nothing more than a lie. It's heart breaking and soul crushing. It's the worst feeling in the world, but when I'm there it feels like I'm real and I would put up through all the nightmares and all the sorrow of that feeling just to experience the happiness I felt in that perfect moment that happens in some dreams. I have this lingering feeling that dreams are a window to so much more than just a bunch of synapse in our brain communicating surreal nonsense. I would like to know if anyone feels the same or if there's a logical explanation to why I feel this way.

teatops
Posts: 1
Joined: 26 Oct 2014 19:13

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby teatops » 26 Oct 2014 19:25

1st post i read had me hooked ,
i love the word "why" i have zero math skills and have to walk around n sandals to make change . So does that mean math is going to follow suit in my dreams ? and or do i get to write my own math . I have had thoughts of being a catalyst in solving the problem of gravity .
I know very little about it but feel there is something i need to do . like the butterfly effect.
I have a no fear attitude when it comes to most things and a can do attitude when doing things I WANT TO DO ,

any reason that math has to be the same in my dream reality would be welcomed

regards Teatops

kel21139
Posts: 5
Joined: 20 Oct 2014 17:37

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby kel21139 » 27 Oct 2014 17:37

@nesgirl .. Well if "One is to each his own reality" then is there any chance to break free from this perception of what our mind has created? For example , how does the mind exist without a body? After death, how could are thoughts or memories exist without a corporeal form of which to retain them?

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Summerlander
Posts: 4338
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby Summerlander » 27 Oct 2014 23:00

kel21139 wrote: I have barely, if ever had a lucid dream but I have had dreams that feel so real it does have me question the validity of our reality. Some dreams are so intense that I feel like I'm truly alive while sleeping. My emotions are so ecstasy filled as if I could love, or fear, or have passion a hundred times greater than in when I am awake. It's like having the most perfect moment, the most perfect love, and the most perfect place in your grasp, only to be whisked away as you realize it was nothing more than a lie. It's heart breaking and soul crushing. It's the worst feeling in the world, but when I'm there it feels like I'm real and I would put up through all the nightmares and all the sorrow of that feeling just to experience the happiness I felt in that perfect moment that happens in some dreams. I have this lingering feeling that dreams are a window to so much more than just a bunch of synapse in our brain communicating surreal nonsense. I would like to know if anyone feels the same or if there's a logical explanation to why I feel this way.


First, you need to have a lucid dream. Second, the intensity of hallucinations do not question the validity of objective reality in any way. How did you work that one out? It merely shows that the brain creates an elaborate model of reality during the waking state, a sort of "hallucination" constrained by sensory input, and, at night, it is free to create other models unconstrained by sensory input from the external world, i.e. dreams, lucid dreams.

It is also apparent to me that the truth of dreams being mere illusions is so repugnant to you that you would rather wrap yourself in the delusion that they occur in another dimension. If the materialistic explanation does not satisfy you, what more do you want? Your fantasy is certainly no explanation! where is this dimension? What is it made of? How does human consciousness tap into it? where is your evidence?

As you said, a "lingering feeling" aka. a bias. Just because a proposition to you is more attractive does not make it true and it is no good reason for subscribing to it. It is more noble to follow the truth no matter how repulsive it is. At least it's the truth! 8-)

@nesgirl .. Well if "One is to each his own reality" then is there any chance to break free from this perception of what our mind has created? For example , how does the mind exist without a body? After death, how could are thoughts or memories exist without a corporeal form of which to retain them?


The mind cannot exist without the body for it is a byproduct of it. There is no afterlife either and out-of-body experiences are just illusions. The usually inaccurate replicate of your bedroom, or replica of the tiny portion of the local universe that you happened to have fallen asleep in, is hallucinated (created by your mind which is in turn generated by your brain). :ugeek:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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buildit
Posts: 482
Joined: 23 Sep 2014 04:14
Location: USA

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby buildit » 28 Oct 2014 01:46

kel21139 wrote:@nesgirl .. Well if "One is to each his own reality" then is there any chance to break free from this perception of what our mind has created? For example , how does the mind exist without a body? After death, how could are thoughts or memories exist without a corporeal form of which to retain them?

Put another way, "How does the mind break free of the perception our body has allowed it?" There is art, music, and Intuitive leaps of perception. The act of bringing into existence that which has never been seen or experienced is not measurable. Yet it happens and to a degree that has never been experienced in 5000 years of human history. Sure our tools are better and our machines can now think for us, even our means of communicating and sharing information are beyond the dreams of people 50 years ago. So we keep asking what does it mean? Some are tied to the logic and unemotional rational answers math and science can give us, others are shall we say holistic in their approach. I prefer the marriage of science to the preceptive answers that can be sometimes found in dreams. To that end I believe the mind can exist outside the corporeal, question is are dreams a practice ground for what comes next or a preview of what man may become?
Is Lucid Dreaming the brains preparation for the next step of human evolution when we can escape the corporeal bond of our bodies?

kel21139
Posts: 5
Joined: 20 Oct 2014 17:37

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby kel21139 » 29 Oct 2014 17:07

@Summerlander... To be clear, even though I may have a biased opinion in my pursuit of an explanation to why I feel this way I am not closed off to any idea no matter how repulsive the reality of it may seem to me. I realize the fact, that in me wishing there to be something more hinders me from possibly ever accepting the cold hard truth that there may not be. This has nothing to do with religion and what is science but mere theories until proven correct or false by testing them out?The world was flat to everyone more than 500 years ago, and those who thought differently were ridiculed or deemed insane but lo and behold the Earth was actually round when we had the means to verify it for ourselves. All I'm asking for is someone to shed some light on my opinion, preferably someone with experience in the same emotions be it whether I'm a fool following another fool or it being someone who truly understands these things. I accept my own demise in believing something that may not be possible or exist. If this something, whatever it is may be is out there, then how rewarding would it be to actually find it or non the less at least know that it wasn't true with 100% certainty. Yet if I were to stop searching and find out this to be true later on and know it was too late now to get to it, then to me that would be worse then any conceivable hell or torture within the imagination of the human mind.

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Summerlander
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Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby Summerlander » 29 Oct 2014 18:48

I think you mistake the meaning of a scientific theory for our quotidian use of the word. In science, a theory is a body of work involving data and observations. A theory is ready to be confirmed a posteriori, or be wholly or partly falsified. Some theories have predictive power and stand the test of time. Their conclusions have earned the factual label.

In science, you also get hypotheses. There is the hypothesis of God's existence. There is the hypothesis of unicorns. The hypothesis of ghosts. Hypotheses are ideas with less substance than theories. In fact, the aforementioned examples have no underpinnings, i.e. no calculations, no measurements, no confirmed observations or evidence of any sort. The onus is on the exponent to demonstrate their validity if they hold any. The afterlife lies in this category. So far, those who claim that we are immortal have failed to show, in a reasonable way, the roots of their certainty.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

dreamstudent
Posts: 176
Joined: 21 Sep 2014 07:24

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby dreamstudent » 31 Oct 2014 06:19

I feel this way too.. The reality of an LD can seem more real than this one. Not to mention exciting..

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Summerlander
Posts: 4338
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby Summerlander » 31 Oct 2014 10:15

"seem more real" doesn't make it more real or objectively real for that matter. Schizophrenics can also be absolutely convinced about the reality of their delusions...

In the waking state, the brain creates a phenomenological model of reality according to sensory input. It has its own way of interpreting the incoming data. The subjective picture feels very real. At night, when we sleep, the brain no longer heeds external information but it already contains sufficient endogenous material that permits it to create "realities" of its own, worlds that are only real insofar as subjectivity go and therefore have no basis on the real world. Such subjectively made-up worlds are the perception of inner creations. They are called dreams. If you know they are dreams whilst having them then you are lucid dreaming. That's all.

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

CosmickGold
Posts: 9
Joined: 04 Nov 2014 05:03

Re: Crazy Idea

Postby CosmickGold » 04 Nov 2014 17:07

I'm convinced the dream world IS a real place, and not so separated from the "physical" world. Here are some reasons why I'm convinced:

(1) I and many others have had what's called "Mutual Dreams", where you wake up and learn that the other person in your dream remembers it too! And you prove it to each other by each asking the other questions only someone there could possibly know. There are a number of books on this subject; one documents over 200 such dreams and is titled "Mutual Dreaming" by Linda.... So how could people share dreams, if the dreams were not happening in real places?

(2) In one mutual dream I had with a friend, we were investigating an unfinished hotel that didn't have sheetrock on the walls yet. Three years later we found that hotel, and six years later we purchased it. There were many other details (besides that lack of sheetrock) that proved it truly was the building we saw in our mutual dream. How could we see and explore a real place we'd never been to, if dreams were not closely linked to physical reality and real themselves?

(3) There is a metaphysical teaching that "As above, so below", meaning what you experience and do in your dreams, filters down into physical reality, and that you can change what will happen in the physical by imagining a better ending to the dream. I did this once when waking up startled from a dream where I didn't see a car stalled on a bridge until I smashed into it. A couple of days later, I recognized the bridge, remembered the dream, and slammed on my breaks well before ever seeing the stalled car. And yes, the stalled car really was there. That dream prevented the crash, and was certainly very real.

(4) A related field called "Astal Projection" or "Out Of Body Experience" is where a person experiences their spirit separating from their physical body which can often see their body left behind in the bed, and either go investigate things in the physical world (which they can later prove real) or go experience the 'astral' world. Since this experience can turn into a dream, and dreams can turn into this experience, I think it another proof dreams are real.

(5) I have the theory that dreams only seem less real because there is a memory barrier between dream and waking consciousness. When in the dream, it is the physical world that seems like a faintly remembered dream; just as while in the physical, the night experience seems unreal. If without the memory barrier, we'd know it was real, and find easy ways to prove it real.

I'm smiling about the joyous experiences you've had there. Yes, they were real!


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