calling it quits: LD leads to horrible insomia

For general lucid chat - ask questions, share advice, set lucid dream challenges and explore the lucid realm together.
astrovineyard
Posts: 149
Joined: 29 Jan 2015 04:49

calling it quits: LD leads to horrible insomia

Postby astrovineyard » 13 Feb 2015 19:09

Which is a shame because I like to think with more practice I can master this, or at least have interesting dreams once in a while (like I did when I was a kid and not even trying, or actively trying to PREVENT in some cases!) - how things change...

While it is true I've tried Galantamine which CAN cause insomnia, I've only tried it on three night the past couple weeks, and the insomnia trouble began before the bottle arrived. The only other thing I've done differently is try to move my bedtime from its ridiculous 2:00 a.m. to something more reasonable. My wife would be asleep by 10:00 and I'd get a second wind and do more chores and things than I did all day, then crawl into bed and sleep wonderfully, as I had for the past couple decades since my last bout of insomnia. So where did it all go wrong?

Something about the vigilance, meditation attempts and EXPECTATION of having an LD put me in this state, and now it is going to take quite an effort to extricate myself from it and get back to normal. Last night I lay in bed for hours until 4:30, going INSANE (with jealousy and frustration). How can some fail at fighting to stay awake while driving or watching TV, and here I am four HOURS waiting for unconsciousness?

This is why I need to try and forget about the LDs. When I DON'T think of them (if that is the advice to the above paragraph), then they most certainly will NOT happen, which is why I was enlisting the aid of supplements to increase the odds of an LD (or even SP) to happen in spite of my failed willful efforts.

Unless there is some advice to quickly solve my current problem and not give up on an LD, I see no other option to salvage my sanity. Thanks for the previous tips and answers in my other posts, though.

User avatar
taniaaust1
Posts: 2910
Joined: 07 Feb 2013 15:32
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: calling it quits: LD leads to horrible insomia

Postby taniaaust1 » 14 Feb 2015 07:49

This is why I need to try and forget about the LDs. When I DON'T think of them (if that is the advice to the above paragraph), then they most certainly will NOT happen, which is why I was enlisting the aid of supplements to increase the odds of an LD (or even SP) to happen in spite of my failed willful efforts


The one thing which has really come across in your posts when you post about your LD attempt is STRESS. Sounds like you arent relaxing enough and are trying too hard. Maybe you should give it a break.

Being able to fall asleep is important for a LD. (Im thinking your meditation attempts have probably been quite stressful too due to how you feel about it all. Meditation is supposed to be relaxing and often helps people get to sleep).

I think you need to learn to relax well before trying to get into LD again.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

astrovineyard
Posts: 149
Joined: 29 Jan 2015 04:49

Re: calling it quits: LD leads to horrible insomia

Postby astrovineyard » 14 Feb 2015 20:10

taniaaust1 wrote:
This is why I need to try and forget about the LDs. When I DON'T think of them (if that is the advice to the above paragraph), then they most certainly will NOT happen, which is why I was enlisting the aid of supplements to increase the odds of an LD (or even SP) to happen in spite of my failed willful efforts


The one thing which has really come across in your posts when you post about your LD attempt is STRESS. Sounds like you arent relaxing enough and are trying too hard. Maybe you should give it a break.

Being able to fall asleep is important for a LD. (Im thinking your meditation attempts have probably been quite stressful too due to how you feel about it all. Meditation is supposed to be relaxing and often helps people get to sleep).

I think you need to learn to relax well before trying to get into LD again.


Thanks for responding.

I don't believe stress is the trigger to my insomnia. When I am experimenting it is quite interesting, but mixed with a little impatience when it does not progress as far or as quickly as I'd like. What happens is these attempts result me in staying awake through them (or, if being mentally awake is the goal, my body stubbornly is awake too, and not paralyzed). Only after I begin losing sleep over this (and/or am disappointed that any herbal aids to sleep or LD haven't worked), THEN stress kicks in and makes the insomnia worse, in a vicious cycle.

The problem is, if I DON'T do these meditative things and just go to be as usual (and sleep fine) then SP and LD never happen - I always forget to do things while dreaming. So I need to be MORE aware to remember these things, yet remain relaxed enough to fall asleep first? If I am thinking about falling asleep, I stay awake. Only when I am not thinking about it do I drift to sleep, not realizing that I did.

So, I CAN relax, but only by NOT attempting LD. How can I go about this differently without falling back into a cycle of insomnia?

LUCKILY I slept GREAT last night. I was so happy - I could have kept sleeping in the morning, it was such a nice cozy feeling. Even remembered a few (non-lucid) dreams. I generally have pretty good dream recall. I suppose as long as I have that I won't become one of those people for whom sleep is just a biological function (like those who eat to survive rather than pleasure). I want more to sleep to be a necessary but otherwise wasted third of your life, noticed only by "lost time" when looking at a clock when you wake up to know you've slept. I was just looking to find a way to make the dreams more interesting, as they were in my past.

So, yes, I will lay off the LD attempts for a while to make sure I'm back to normal and have kicked the insomnia. I know I did previously because I had it twice before and beat it, sleeping great for several years in a row after each incident.

What I don't understand is how stress works differently for sleepers. Let's say someone has horrible chronic recurring nightmares (or SP or whatever) and is genuinely stressed out about it, wanting it to stop and fearing sleep itself. WHY DOESN'T THIS PERSON GET INSOMNIA? Instead - despite their "stress" - they fall gently to sleep much more easily than an insomniac, only to be tortured again by their dreams. I, on the other hand, would LIKE something more interesting like this to happen, but my very attempts not only result in nothing interesting, but backfire with insomnia. How is my not getting a cool dream now and then MORE stressful (resulting in insomnia) than someone haunted by constant nightmares, who doesn't get insomnia? What is going on here, other than a demonstration of "you only get the opposite of what you wish for"?

Inedible
Posts: 45
Joined: 21 Aug 2014 02:34

Re: calling it quits: LD leads to horrible insomia

Postby Inedible » 15 Feb 2015 01:44

Sleep is good. I value it even when my dreams are not lucid, and often the biggest obstacle to lucidity is that I'm too busy participating in my dream to want to change it. I frequently recognize that I'm having one of my usual dreams and all I do about it is quickly check to see which variation I'm having. When I wake up and don't recall a dream, that is fine. I know next time will be better. Sleep is never wasted time for me. It is the other way around; I count down the hours until my wife will let me go back to bed. Lucid dreaming practices are for two times during the day. Mainly it is something you do during other activities in your day, until everything reminds you of lucid dreaming. More active attempts such as guided daydreaming are for short breaks in your routine and for falling back to sleep after waking up.

And maybe stress is the wrong word for the problem. Remember, the bulk of your mind's activity is behind the scenes in your subconscious. Circular patterns of thought and belief there can be much more challenging to identify and unwind.

User avatar
Peter
Posts: 1942
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: calling it quits: LD leads to horrible insomia

Postby Peter » 15 Feb 2015 08:32

you are trying that hard the mental chatter is keeping you awake. I did that along with lucid dreaming for a lot of years. Learn to observe the chatter and not let it drive you.
its hard but also very easy when you get the hang of it. just chill out and the sleep and dreams will come
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

astrovineyard
Posts: 149
Joined: 29 Jan 2015 04:49

Re: calling it quits: LD leads to horrible insomia

Postby astrovineyard » 16 Feb 2015 16:01

I've had insomnia with the mental chatter. This was different, because I'd just be focusing on patterns behind eyelids or having a song playing in head. I seemed to just be waiting for sleep to happen that'd never come, even if I focused on nothing. A few times I'd do a little leg jerk and I'd groan because it meant I was just drifting to sleep when my BODY automatically kicked myself awake (i.e., I did not consciously/mentally do it).

ANYWAY, after three great nights of sleep, I was very happy, since I was worried the insomnia would be harder to kick. Seems as soon as I gave up on attempting LD or taking Galantamine, I was back to regular sleep. This seems to indict the who LD process, rather than any abstract systematic "stress" on my part. So, problem one solved!

So last night I decided to try another Galantamine, but just focus on getting to sleep, and let it do what it was going to do (or not). I took it a couple hours of sleep, when my partner got up to leave for work at an ungodly hour. Immediately I could not fall back to sleep! I doubt it worked that quickly (better than coffee??) so it must partly have been my anticipation. My goal was JUST GET TO SLEEP, no strange meditation tricks or anything. But here we go again, and for the next 2 - 2.5 hours I was awake...

...until I DID fall asleep, had a few lackluster dreams, and woke up. Okay, so the problem seemed temporary. Let's see if we can sleep some more... and I did. Okay, a few more dreams, not especially vivid (the strangest and most memorable one involved a slightly comical scene where someone is trying to spell the last name of an old college friend of mine that sounded nothing like it was spelled, made up of 20 letters or so and seemed to be made of individual small words...).

So where were the lucid dreams, or sleep paralysis?

One step at a time. Kick the insomnia - check. Manage to sleep WHILE taking Galantamine: working on it, but last night seemed an improvement in the right direction.

I know the "LD masters/purists" will poo-poo me taking supplements, but honestly, if this goes hand in hand with their advice "maybe you aren't cut out for LD" seems to leave me in a disappointing place. If it is an issue of increased LD/SP probability on the Galantamine, then it seems like it is a waiting game and I might be best off ignoring the whole LD issue, and just take a pill once or twice a week during the next year (until they run out) and see if I get any "surprises." Even ONE would be better than how things have been in this regard, but if NOTHING happened, then that would pretty much wrap it up for me with the "Lucid Dream Wonder Pill."

User avatar
Peter
Posts: 1942
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: calling it quits: LD leads to horrible insomia

Postby Peter » 16 Feb 2015 19:40

There are very few masters , a lot of experienced practitioners that's all. The concept of master is elitist and just BS really and full of self promotion nad making money.
I have had more LD's than most but less than some.

Supp help but wont make you lucid if you cannot already enter a LD and have some control of a LD. I use supps every few weeks but most of the time dont bother as I dont need them for long deep lucids. If I use if G and Choline

I do use coffee and it works great in fact as good as anything. So coffee combined with WBTB is enough to get me lucid 3 to 5 times a week on a good run and no go on those nights where is just wont work.

Relax a bit in expectation and quietly up the intent or resolve. One gets you excited and the other is quiet observation and get results.

Sleep - I as so bad that after 30 or so years of no sleep I went to a sleep specilist and got sorted so its all possible
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

User avatar
taniaaust1
Posts: 2910
Joined: 07 Feb 2013 15:32
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: calling it quits: LD leads to horrible insomia

Postby taniaaust1 » 18 Feb 2015 16:34

Peter wrote: Supp help but wont make you lucid if you cannot already enter a LD and have some control of a LD.


I agree with Peter. There is no like magic bullet with this. Its like you are looking for a quick fix and it usually just doesnt work like that. I tried to tell you that when you first mentioned about getting supplements.

LD is often about trial and error and trying out various techniques to work out what best suits a person or you one could say. Sometimes patience is needed to to rule out what doesnt work and what does for the individual.

"My goal was JUST GET TO SLEEP, no strange meditation tricks or anything. But here we go again, and for the next 2 - 2.5 hours I was awake...
"
If a supplment stops you from being able to get to sleep. Its probably then the wrong thing for you to be taking.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

astrovineyard
Posts: 149
Joined: 29 Jan 2015 04:49

Re: calling it quits: LD leads to horrible insomia

Postby astrovineyard » 19 Feb 2015 06:00

I agree that supplements are not a guarantee. That is different than it increasing the chances. Considering the testimony I've read by certain people big in the LD community who used it, it seems that it worked in SPITE of what they expected, particularly the person who took it too soon against some advice he received, and was treated to a series of nightmarish ordeals. Obviously he would not characterize it as snake oil. It did SOMETHING.

Anyway, as I keep saying, I used to get experiences like this when I was a kid WITHOUT supplements and WITHOUT even trying (actually, against my wishes at the time!). So, supplements or not, nobody has yet explained to me what it was that made me susceptible to so many LD/SP episodes as a kid when I DIDN'T want them, and now makes me NEVER get them despite how much I'd like to have them.

User avatar
Peter
Posts: 1942
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: calling it quits: LD leads to horrible insomia

Postby Peter » 19 Feb 2015 20:59

That is different than it increasing the chances

If you are ready, able, relaxed, understand what to do or else they will just keep you awake.

Get up for an hour around 3 am and take a very strong cup of coffee. It gets me lucid, tell me what it does for you?

As for ease of getting lucid, I have been working on the micro second of WILD entry for a few years now and just starting to get good consistent results. I get a lot of lucids anyway but just trying for easier entries and its hard or take practice so keep at it
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born


Return to “General Lucid Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest